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Comment by: sammorris (May 28, 2006 17:52)

ZippyDSM: I was tyalking about if they sold the 20GB not a price drop on the 60. I see your view and that's what I think would sell well here. Revolution and heaven forbid xbox 360 sales may be upped by that poor choice.

Gazbin: Untested? It could have been brought out at the time of the 360, but they don't want it to be crap, so they have waited to make sure it IS tested. A large die size is good, we want big die, small transistors. The Cell will pwn anything present barring perhaps a dual Woodcrest. I shall expect no such troubles from the Blu-ray drive after 9 months. You can talk about poor quality drives. I wouldn't mind betting you can move a PS3 when there's a disc in it. Not so for a 360.

ZippyDSM and Gazbin: I can't say Sony drives are that great, but my PS2 is going strong after 41 months and my Brother's only broke after 4 years, so they're not quite as bad as you make out. Although I must admit our Philips CD audio deck was working fine after 12+ years of service when we replaced it in 2003. A few segments didnt work in the LCD but apart from that, audio quality was still good.

OzMick: I doubt poor quality manufacture, but it is unnerving having one disabled. Do they automatically re-enable themselves if one breaks?

ZippyDSM: I agree on the testing, and it'll be about then when I'll buy one, post-flaw ironing and post make-the-price-reasonable-ing.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (May 29, 2006 02:21)

sammorris

it seems 40/60 on the PS2 lasting for 4 or so years,altho they had more troubles with soem of thier revisions more than the frist model,but for the msot part I think the PS3 will be ok hardware wise at the most 1/3rd might have troubles with the BR drive in acouple years but thats about all I can see,as far as heat disspintion goes sony is not a stupid company arragont yes stupid not so much they will test thier lil monster correctly,but I wonder if they zone tested it you know palyed it for a few hours in a room thats 80 or so degress's,not everyone is goign to have a 70ish A/C cooled aera to play it in.

I cant wait till it comes out the fanboys are a doubled edged sword and great beta testers...they also whine when thier system fails so with them playing the system with a minuim of life,work and sleep for hours on end a day we all well know soon if the hardware is good or needs fixing ^^

Comment by: sammorris (May 29, 2006 06:38)

Yeah I think that's about right, the first few consoles will have longevity problems, new tech always does. They should then be OK. Sony, as you say, don't care much for consumers, but they're not idiots, if there are heat problems then they'll sort them out sharpish, that's the idea of the delayed launch. Lol good call on the fanboys, they keep gaming alive (although it sickens me to say it!)

Comment by: ZippyDSM (May 29, 2006 06:56)

sammorris

its that profalaxtant love they have for thier consoles ,their the best beta testers anyone could ask for...altho I dont think the systems run well when thier..um ...moist....LOL

Comment by: sammorris (May 29, 2006 07:29)

Now stop that! lol

Comment by: Gazbin (May 29, 2006 08:01)

Issue for Sony is that they don't have time to test & perfect this product. Microsoft pushed for an early next Generation arms race knowing that Sony was far from ready. Early announcements by both Sony & Nintendo was highly critical of Microsoft' rush to introduce new consoles.

With Sony Consumer Electronics business loosing money they cannot afford to fall behind in the console business - the one area that is highly profitable. If Microsoft gets a big head start it will cause major issues for Sony's business model which is based on holding 2/3 market share. That is now in serious jeopardy, so they had to announce a pre-Christmas launch. Cell & Blu-ray ready or not they have to launch.

Now the peak selling Christmas season is closing in and Sony still have not got final dev kits out to Developers. Even the last batch don't confirm what will be inside PS3 when it launches. As a result of the lack of Dev Kits and complex nature of Cell Processor, dissatisfaction among the software houses have started to leak out to the public domain - a true indication that Software partners are no longer staying exclusive to Sony.

To counter escalating costs Sony has pitched that the Blu-ray more than compensates for a US$20-$40 premium over competing XBOX 360 and PC software titles. In addition, Developers are invited to include In-Game-Advertising into the games as an additional source of revenue to counter development costs. Microsoft is joining in on this with the acquisition of Massive – only Nintendo have questioned In-Game-Advertising saying that it was tacky. ** Personally I don't want Advertisements in games that I paid for.

My feeling is that Nintendo may steal development time away from both MS & Sony because their DS & Wii are easy / low cost to develop for and the Wii also looks like being a volume play.

Look, I'm not into the politics - but I do care that the PS3 is being rushed onto the market and will not be reliable. Sony is taking an arrogant "All Care - But no Responsibility" attitude – as always. If consoles break who will pay? The consumer. Prove me wrong Sony, offer a three Year Warranty.

Comment by: sammorris (May 29, 2006 08:31)

Gazbin: Not necessarily, Sony were admittedly less ready, but by the time the PS3 is released, it will be far more tested and proven than the 360 was at launch, so I don't expect anywhere near as many problems.

In-game advertising I don't have a problem with unless its intrusive. I couldn't care less about the advert banners in the PC game RCT3 for example, it's a neat touch that adds to realism, but I don't want adverts being pkated between levels for example unless they take up no more time than a loading screen, in which case they are again, almost harmless, though some timescale for when the level will be ready would be nice.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (May 29, 2006 10:26)

sammorris

stop what I am not a fan boy?? :P

Gazbin

the 360 is/was worse,I dont see that may great games 6 months after PS3 launch,I also dont se alot of hardware issues like the 360.

In game advertazeing,meh depends on how, like sammorris 's says if its in yourface all the tiem and or steals game time,altho I dout any dev would make such a game...altho I can see acouple uber publishing houses try ><

but this at the msot will be on a few games.

Anyway I fel the PS3 is a monster of a console and should have greatgames for it,its just gong to take time for these games to be made as well as any kinks in the PS3 be polished out,as it stands sicne Sony is stubing its fans I can wait acouple years for one...

Comment by: sammorris (May 29, 2006 11:26)

You know what I'm on about! I doubt we will have to worry too much about IGA, it won't be allowed to become too intrusive, and if it does, people will hack it out. Agree exactly on the PS3, regardless of what shortfalls it has, consoles have never been such rivals for the power of PC gaming. £425 wouldn't buy you half a PC that can play most top titles at proper detail at 1280x720.

Comment by: Gazbin (May 30, 2006 07:55)

sammorris: I cannot believe how easily people give up their rights. Does anyone know the difference between Free-to-Air TV and Pay TV? Why would you pay $100+ for a game AND let the publisher put advertisements in it. Amazing. I love the new generation - they are such good suckers.

"So long as it's not in your face Advertisements"?? OK so let us say you buy a game next year and you do find a game where the Advertisements are in your face - What are you going to do about it then? Cry? Ask for a refund? Check your licensing agreement you accepted. Mate if you give an inch they take a mile. Bend over? You may, but not me. "Adverts adds to realism" My ass.

Now let's say the online component includes Spyware (lets call the program RootusersKit-2) How would you feel that personal details and your gaming & movie preferences are fed to marketers. What games you like to play, when and with who. What movies you watch - You wouldn't care would you? Can I have your credit card details by the way?

Anyway enough ranting - that's just how I feel.

RE: XBOX & PS3 reliability. XBOX360 uses a standard DVD-ROM. The High Def DVD option is an external device with separate power source). PS3 has an internal 1st generation Blu-ray disk that has a far higher bit area density and hence far lower physical & environmental tolerances compared with conventional DVD. This sensitive device (which will be made entirely of plastic because of cost constraints) is going to sit next to a very hot Cell Processor (large die size = consumes more power = more heat generation) and an NVidia GPU. All of these devices will draw power off the same source. I see a difference.

Now all I'm suggesting here is that maybe the Blu-ray is going to be a little flaky reading PSX, PS2, and DVD's - Sony is going to blame the condition of your media when things start to go wrong and the drive make the whirring sound.

Before you know it, 12 months have whizzed by and the load time on those Blu-ray disks start to take longer and longer. At the price they are charging - I'd be demanding 3-Years warranty at least.

Comment by: Gazbin (May 30, 2006 09:01)

In my rave I left out that the XBOX 360 uses an external power supply. It has a huge size power source with a physical volume of 1300cm. Yes the 360 still had a lot of heating issues - My point is that the PS3 power source is internal...

Also want to stress that both Sony & MS are pushing the in-game-advertising thing. Sony is also not the only corporate that feels they have the right to imbed Spyware into their products. Google: "Microsoft Spyware Bill". Difference is Sony has already used it.

The Blu-ray in the PS3 will need to calibrate a red laser & blue laser (for CD, DVD / BD-ROM) - it's more complex than the DVD which has had 10 years to get somewhat reliable.

Bottom line for me:

I'm buying a Nintendo Wii and will upgrade my PC to the new AMD Dual Core. I'm waiting for Crysis, Spore, & Unreal Tourney 2007.

Comment by: sammorris (May 30, 2006 16:04)

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I cannot believe how easily people give up their rights. Does anyone know the difference between Free-to-Air TV and Pay TV? Why would you pay $100+ for a game AND let the publisher put advertisements in it. Amazing. I love the new generation - they are such good suckers.

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How do you mean? We pay hand over fist for a TV subscription riddled with adverts. The only safe channels are the free BBC ones and the Sky Movies / Box Office channels.

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"So long as it's not in your face Advertisements"?? OK so let us say you buy a game next year and you do find a game where the Advertisements are in your face - What are you going to do about it then? Cry? Ask for a refund? Check your licensing agreement you accepted. Mate if you give an inch they take a mile. Bend over? You may, but not me. "Adverts adds to realism" My ass.

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They do in RCT3, not all cases but that's one. If adverts are stupidly in your face I'll hear about it and either put up with it or not buy the game. I don't just rush headlong into games without reading up on them first.

Quote:

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Now let's say the online component includes Spyware (lets call the program RootusersKit-2) How would you feel that personal details and your gaming & movie preferences are fed to marketers. What games you like to play, when and with who. What movies you watch - You wouldn't care would you? Can I have your credit card details by the way?

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Yep, here's the number... What are we going to do about it, mount a lawsuit?

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RE: XBOX & PS3 reliability. XBOX360 uses a standard DVD-ROM. The High Def DVD option is an external device with separate power source). PS3 has an internal 1st generation Blu-ray disk that has a far higher bit area density and hence far lower physical & environmental tolerances compared with conventional DVD. This sensitive device (which will be made entirely of plastic because of cost constraints) is going to sit next to a very hot Cell Processor (large die size = consumes more power = more heat generation) and an NVidia GPU. All of these devices will draw power off the same source. I see a difference.

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Nice, compact and free from fires on my carpet. Suits me fine!

Quote:

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Now all I'm suggesting here is that maybe the Blu-ray is going to be a little flaky reading PSX, PS2, and DVD's - Sony is going to blame the condition of your media when things start to go wrong and the drive make the whirring sound.

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and if they do, then they can sod off. Too damn right. But I doubt things will become as bad as you make out.

Quote:

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Before you know it, 12 months have whizzed by and the load time on those Blu-ray disks start to take longer and longer. At the price they are charging - I'd be demanding 3-Years warranty at least.

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Lets see how long your 360 manages too.

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In my rave I left out that the XBOX 360 uses an external power supply. It has a huge size power source with a physical volume of 1300cm. Yes the 360 still had a lot of heating issues - My point is that the PS3 power source is internal...

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So what? So the PS3 gets a tad warm while your carpet is on fire. I can't have a power brick on a cable where my console is, I actually cant have one, the wire goes down a good metre vertically, ive seen people suspend power bricks in the air, not for me thanks.

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Google: "Microsoft Spyware Bill". Difference is Sony has already used it.

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and M$ will charge you for the ability to have it.

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The Blu-ray in the PS3 will need to calibrate a red laser & blue laser (for CD, DVD / BD-ROM) - it's more complex than the DVD

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And better

which has had 10 years to get somewhat reliable.

So? if you never move on, you effectively have a permanently broken high def drive, because you don't actually have one. Ever thought of that?

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Bottom line for me:

I'm buying a Nintendo Wii and will upgrade my PC to the new AMD Dual Core. I'm waiting for Crysis, Spore, & Unreal Tourney 2007.

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I'm also going to upgrade my PC to an X2 4200+ and buy UT2007. Sounds like we have something in common. I may get a Wii too, depending on how much money I have.

Comment by: Gazbin (Jun 05, 2006 05:10)

Gents, PS3 is indeed very very broken and it appears to be worse than we all suspected - this news just in. Published by the Inquirer and showing internal Sony documentation. Matches Sony's latest spin that "they don't care about market share"... They won't have any.

PS3 hardware slow and broken

In words and pictures

AFTER BREAKING THE news to me about PS3 RSX speeds earlier on the flight to Japan, my row-mate said 'if you think that's interesting, wait till you see this. Cell is hurting, badly'.

For those of you that believe in religions with karmic tendencies, scoops like this meant one of two things, the wings of the plane are about to fall off and I am going to die in a fiery ball, or worse yet, the movie selection will be worrisome. Cell memory access appears to be broken, RSX has half the triangle setup rate of the ATI chip in XBox360, and the true horror, Big Momma's House 2 and a Queen Latifa movie.

With the movie selection still making my brain throb from the glances I caught, I furiously took notes on what the source was saying. He started out saying that the RSX can only write about half as much vertex data as it can fetch, not an ideal situation by any stretch, but survivable.

Then came the horrible news, RSX appears to be limited to setting up 275 Million triangles/second, anemic compared to the 500+ million in XBox360. When asked about this apparent thumping dished out by MS, the reply from one notable ISV relations boffin was a terse 'What a Piece of Junk'. Talk about a steak in the heart.

Half the triangle setup capability in the PS3, could things get worse? Yes, far far worse, how about another disparity of three orders of magnitude? No, I am not joking, looking at Sony's own figures, Cell appears to be pretty badly broken.

For main memory, it looks like Cell has about 25GBps of main memory bandwidth, and RSX is about 15-20GBps. Achievable bandwidth is between about two thirds of that and nearly 100%, clearly the elves in the caves surrounding Rambus central did something right with XDR. That is the happy news.

For local memory, the measured vs theoretical bandwidth is missing, I wonder why? RSX is at a solid 22.4GBps for both read and write, good job there green team. Then comes the blue team with Cell. Local memory write is about 4GBps, 40% of the next slowest bandwidth there. Then comes the bomb from hell, the Cell local memory read bandwidth is a stunning 16MBps, note that is a capital M to connote Mega vs a capital G to connote Giga. This is a three order of magnitude oopsie, and it is an oopsie, as Sony put it "(no, this isn't a typo...)".

If you can write at 250x the read speed, it makes Cell local memory just about useless. That means you do all your work out of main memory, and the whole point of local is, well, pointless. This can lead to contention issues for the main memory bus, and all sorts of nightmarish to debug performance problems. Basically, if this Sony presentation to PS3 devs shown to us is correct, it looks like PS3 will be hobbled in a serious way.

The next slide goes on to say "Don't read from local memory, but write to main memory with RSX(tm) and read it from there instead", and repeats the table numbers. This is very very bad. The number of times the presentation goes on to say that it is correct, and the lack of anything like "this will be fixed by production steppings, so take measures X, Y and Z" say to me that it is not a fixable snafu. Remember at E3 when I said that the PS3 demos there were object sparse? Any guesses why?

Someone screwed up so badly it looks like it will relegate the console to second place behind the 360. All the devs I talked to were lukewarm on the 360 architecture but universally negative on the PS3. Revelations like this go a long way to explain why you keep hearing about simmering problems from the Sony devs.

You end up with a console with half the triangle setup rate of the 360, a crippled CPU that is a bitch to program, and tools that are atrocious compared to the 360. To make matters worse, you have an arrogant set of execs telling us that twice the price is worth it for half the power, a year late. If it isn't already too late, Sony had better do something about this recto-cranial inversion or it may very well sink the console

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 05, 2006 05:20)

Oh look, the Inquirer's appeared.

Lol, it's this damn nVidia letting the side down again! But come on, for $70, what can you expect?

But in all honesty, I agree with that, the PS3 is going to be expensive and underpowered, but who cares? I've seen rendered footage of what these microscopic transfer rates can achieve, and no games console will play games that only give you 20fps on non-upgradeable hardware, so I still expect good things from it. Hey, at least with constricted performance it won't overheat!!! :D :P

This ain't gonna stop me buying one.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 05, 2006 09:56)

Gazbin

THe Wii is the most underpowered of them all yet you are buying one without a 2nd thought,also if you bother to stop and think about it the 360 is as crippled as the PS3 add half of all game devs wont touch it wiht a 10 foot poll and the PS3 were it not for the price would be as great to get as the Wii...

Like I siad befor the fanboys and thier hard loive'n of the PS3 willb eta test the hell out of it and we will know soon enough if there will be any hardware woes,and 360 is just now gettign over its own set of hardware nightmares...

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 05, 2006 10:02)

yep, as I say I'd rather have a "slow" system than a system that continually overheats and crashes. If my PC did that (well it does both actually, but's because I messed up my heatsink install, and besides it doesn't do one because of another) , I'd change the heatsink. If my games console did that, I'd take it back. No system that is woefully inadequate could render this:

Could it?

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 05, 2006 10:06)

sammorris

thats becuse unlike the PC market the console devs are working hard to get the most out of every bit of Mhz and bit of ramm,the PC market seems to still be full of sloppy devs that need more power *coughcarmackcough*.....

errrr whatever his name is thre genuis behind DOOM3,we dont need game paly or story lets amaze them with a game they will never forget....unfornately its not the eyecandy we wont forget >>

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 05, 2006 10:21)

It's the system requirements. I know, Doom 3 was quite bad, but Quake 4 isn't any worse. However they paved the way for some ludicrous games that at some detail levels aren't playable on any current system, be it crossfire or quad sli or whatever you like.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 05, 2006 10:33)

As long as the level design and gamepaly evovle from the basic bland ickyness of D3 and Q4,its like buying a new car thats rusted on the inside,these games might have nice shiny paint job but to me they are woefuly lacking.

F.E.A.R might be repetivity to the 9th power but at its core it is fun and the story was nice to boot,and frankly you cant beat the way they built levels.

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 05, 2006 10:35)

I'd like to be able to play FEAR once I get a new system. I disagree about Doom 3, no matter what people say about it being the same old same old style game, I enjoyed it immensely, in fact I've completed most of it twice (I got to hell, got a bit stuck and then got bored for a bit, then came back and started again and went through to the end). I think some of the levels that other people have made are cool though, particularly stuff like The classic Doom mod etc.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 05, 2006 10:40)

sammorris

the onyl thign I liked about D3 was the story,the PDA was nice to but only half thought out,ever paly System shock 2 you could read and listen to all the notes and stuff you find,and sicne they didnt do a great job on level design SS2 is the better game,I can stand D3 alot more than Q4 ,Q4 is a nearly prefect waste they managed to take Q2 and Q3 and merge them into crap ><

I might be flamable in my dislike of D3 and Q4 but I am merely holding them to every game I have palyed.

D3 was kind of fun when I doubled jump and trippled walk,it was fun to move around like you did in the oridgnal games *L*,I cant bring myself to paly Q4 again even with extras and cheats.

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 05, 2006 12:19)

I've yet to play either, and can't wait. Suit yourself, mate I loved it!

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 05, 2006 23:55)

sammorris

thats great you can enjoy it I get to costapated palying watered down or annoying games 0-o

I wish as was mindless with games as I am in real life..I could enojoy thigns better 0-o LOL

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 06, 2006 05:19)

erm, one of these

?

and one of these

!

Comment by: sammorris (Jun 06, 2006 05:25)

Me? No trouble at all. In any case, that's a good thing, no need to waste time not playing games by being on the toilet!