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Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 15, 2008 15:01)

Originally posted by Bradderss:

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Your all missing one thing. If you read the small print which accompanies the game i'm sure there is a part which says "this product is the sole property of EA Games" which means you are only leasing the game from them.

Also when you buy the game in disc format you get exactly the same as if it were a digital download which means EA saves money by not having to change authentication between the two types.

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Yes - as with all software, the creators are not selling you the software (source code/ownership) when you buy a game, they are selling you a license to use the software, and it used to be that that licenses were open ended timewise in games. It's been done that way since day one with games, but now it's changing with people like WoW and other online games selling subscriptions.

But if EA insist on using the rental model instead of the license model via their DRM authentication using servers that wont be active in 5 years time I'm betting) then they should give time scales until software can no longer authenticate, on the front of the pack, so you know what you are paying for, and clearly label the other restrictions on the box too (activation limits). Companies like EA are changing the PC game model of buying a dvd/cd and legally being able to use that at your own leisure for as long as it lasts - they are essentially now pushing the rental model without making it clear that you are no longer buying the same thing you were buying 3 years ago. That's the issue here - I'm guessing if they licensed the game using a subscription model of £5 a year they would sell tons, even though the restrictions would apply, if not be worse... but they are selling it for £25 up front, and not telling you how long you can use it for or how many times you can install it before it becomes annoying to install it (phone calls are very inconvenient when lines are open 9-5, and you are trying to play at 2am).

Comment by: BludRayne (Sep 15, 2008 17:50)

On the front of the box should be a warning label that says the game is a rental. There also needs an expiration date printed clearly.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 15, 2008 18:18)

Originally posted by BludRayne:

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On the front of the box should be a warning label that says the game is a rental. There also needs an expiration date printed clearly.

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agree, but not only that, also usage limitations. Too bad it wont happen, because that would force them to lower their prices...too bad no one told them if they lower the prices demand will raise, more volume will be sold and it will make up for itself and then some.

Seriously if that were to happen...i dont know say the price of a game was reduced to $10 for three installs...who is going to bother pirating a $10 game...im sure there are people out there that would, but it would not be me, or even the majority of the public i would imagine.

Comment by: varnull (Sep 15, 2008 18:21)

People will still look for the cracked versions.. because they offer unlimited installs.. they are a better product without stupid pointless restrictions.

Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work. Im an a$$hole too.. and Im very proud of the fact.

Comment by: DXR88 (Sep 15, 2008 18:46)

Originally posted by varnull:

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People will still look for the cracked versions.. because they offer unlimited installs.. they are a better product without stupid pointless restrictions.

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Agreed, then some With a crack comes, No-CD/DVD patches, and when broken enough CD-keys.

Corporations Only care about total revenue, As EA is a Corporate Entity which snatches up development teams, for there own gain. im sure most Developers Would rather not cripple there game with this stuff,but thats no longer there call.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 15, 2008 19:13)

Originally posted by varnull:

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People will still look for the cracked versions.. because they offer unlimited installs.. they are a better product without stupid pointless restrictions.

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true, but with a $10 price tag it aims at 2 types of consumers, the ones who play it through and are done with it, and the people who want replay value later down the road, whether they buy another copy to support the game manufacturer and the developers that put in long hours to come up with the final product, or they get shortchanged and a crack applied

You think someone would crack a $10 game, i mean...how many bargain bin games at game stop do you see crazily seeded on the bit torrents, with the argument that bargain bin games are old set aside, people still play them, proof of which was the several post of the old C&C series earlier.

Originally posted by dxr88:

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Corporations Only care about total revenue, As EA is a Corporate Entity which snatches up development teams, for there own gain. im sure most Developers Would rather not cripple there game with this stuff,but thats no longer there call.

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true, but isnt that a goal for everyone, making money? If there's no profit, whats the point?

I dont know about you but i sure dont go to work for my health, or out of the goodness of my heart...its for that paycheck.


BTW: i am using the $10 mark as merely a hypothetical situation which was explained earlier up...people actively reading the post will know this already but i can already foresee someone questioning my numbers.

Comment by: DXR88 (Sep 15, 2008 19:43)

Quote:

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true, but isnt that a goal for everyone, making money? If there's no profit, whats the point?

I dont know about you but i sure dont go to work for my health, or out of the goodness of my heart...its for that paycheck.

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Indeed, but if you where aware of the way almost all the development teams where attained, your opinion would change. Whens the last time you played a Game that wasn't Part of Microsoft Studio's, Sony Computer Entertainment's, Or EA Games Franchise.

I think of it like a Arm's Race, Those 3 Companies Are Expanding at a really fast pace. all 3 of them think alike (How can we Screw The Consumer why'll getting a nice fat check)

those three Cooperate Entity's will eventually have a good 90% of all development teams, 3rd party or not.

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 15, 2008 20:32)

Quote:

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I think of it like a Arm's Race, Those 3 Companies Are Expanding at a really fast pace. all 3 of them think alike (How can we Screw The Consumer why'll getting a nice fat check)

those three Cooperate Entity's will eventually have a good 90% of all development teams, 3rd party or not.

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Yeah, the bigger studio's suits are like that - but there are still a good number of startup's/independants that are producing some decent games... and I'm pretty sure the majority of the developers themselves are doing it because they love gaming, development in games industry is cut throat, the only way you can survive in it is if you love it, long hours and job insecurity, not best mix... although they do get enough for it. Got offered a development job once for a gaming company once, nice pay packet, but I liked having a social life outside work! ;)

I can see where you're coming from though - last pc games I played were Crysis, GoW and Sim Societies - I think that's 2 EA's, and one sponsored by M$... although I tend to spend most of my time on the 360 now because I'm sick of all the extra bumph and drm they stick on with the games, plus m$ forcing Vista only releases on studio's now! :(

Comment by: borhan9 (Sep 15, 2008 21:54)

Any peogram that u buy an original copy of that has a 3 or limited installation is not worth your money. i can understand if its bootlegged or something but if u buy legit then u should have no restrictions and if the reviews are 1 star it must b worth that poor rating.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 17, 2008 03:01)

Originally posted by DXR88:

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Quote:

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true, but isnt that a goal for everyone, making money? If there's no profit, whats the point?

I dont know about you but i sure dont go to work for my health, or out of the goodness of my heart...its for that paycheck.

---

Indeed, but if you where aware of the way almost all the development teams where attained, your opinion would change. Whens the last time you played a Game that wasn't Part of Microsoft Studio's, Sony Computer Entertainment's, Or EA Games Franchise.

I think of it like a Arm's Race, Those 3 Companies Are Expanding at a really fast pace. all 3 of them think alike (How can we Screw The Consumer why'll getting a nice fat check)

those three Cooperate Entity's will eventually have a good 90% of all development teams, 3rd party or not.

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correct me if i am wrong, but you are questioning my opinion that all people want to make money?

If anything your, statement would only strengthen my opinion. The 3 companies you name of want to have a sole ownership over the industry.

Once again, correct me if i am wrong, but i would imply that that is because they want to make more money?

Comment by: DXR88 (Sep 17, 2008 06:16)

like i said EA is a box, within this box is a group of development teams that where once there own company, acquired by EA do to bankruptcy, selling out. EA the box, now controls how there games are marketed.

Some developers have no want for drm to be on there product, but EA looks at the developers and goes who the hell are you, get back to work.

EA wants money alright, how much of that revenue really goes to the developers, probably about 20%-the rest goes to EA.

MS studio's, Sony entertainment, and EA. all are like prison for developers more than anything.

there in lies the problem, those three company's exist to do one thing, crush any small developments teams dreams, by stifling the market.

MS studio's is like Warner.
Sony entertainmentis like Loews (MGM).
EA is comparable to Paramount Pictures.

its as plain as ice, there trying to conform gaming into the next big five. they destroyed the Movie industries. now they want to destroy gaming.

give it 5 years and gaming, will be referred to the gaming industries.

and its always about the money, devs don't see there worth.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 19, 2008 01:35)

which i never objected to any of those things, i had merely proposed a solution that would allow for the drm, yet still make sense for people to buy the product.

as for developers...last i heard they make $70,000+ a year on average
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18406129/#storyContinued
Its an old article but still from a major news source

when you compare that in ratio to a 12.5 billion dollar industry, it sure dont sound like much, but think of how many people were involved, all of them making a very healthy 5 digit figure.

On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people, there is much more in the computer industry than just video game development. If developers are being treated so badly, why aren't they pursuing other computer related fields.

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 19, 2008 10:50)

Originally posted by DXR88:

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like i said EA is a box, within this box is a group of development teams that where once there own company, acquired by EA do to bankruptcy, selling out. EA the box, now controls how there games are marketed.

Some developers have no want for drm to be on there product, but EA looks at the developers and goes who the hell are you, get back to work.

EA wants money alright, how much of that revenue really goes to the developers, probably about 20%-the rest goes to EA.

MS studio's, Sony entertainment, and EA. all are like prison for developers more than anything.

there in lies the problem, those three company's exist to do one thing, crush any small developments teams dreams, by stifling the market.

MS studio's is like Warner.
Sony entertainmentis like Loews (MGM).
EA is comparable to Paramount Pictures.

its as plain as ice, there trying to conform gaming into the next big five. they destroyed the Movie industries. now they want to destroy gaming.

give it 5 years and gaming, will be referred to the gaming industries.

and its always about the money, devs don't see there worth.

---

You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

Comment by: IguanaC64 (Sep 19, 2008 12:56)

Well...all I know is that I'm the type that likes to go back and replay games sometimes after a few years and I think that accepting this DRM would set a dangerous precedent. I also reload computers from time to time for various reasons and uninstall games to make room for new games. From the commercials, Spore doesn't look good enough for me to want to replay over the years, but it was interesting enough for me to consider buying.

The DRM was definately the deciding factor not to buy it.

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 19, 2008 13:13)

Originally posted by IguanaC64:

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... The DRM was definately the deciding factor not to buy it.

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Same here... shame really because the game looked quite fun.

Comment by: 13thHouR (Sep 19, 2008 15:49)

Originally posted by AtiLaw:

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Originally posted by IguanaC64:

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... The DRM was definately the deciding factor not to buy it.

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Same here... shame really because the game looked quite fun.

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In part i agree but the DRM is easily bypassed, what i disagree and will boycott all titles with this anti-consumer approach is that the DRM restriction is being censored by Amazon and other retailers and EA have not put any of this information of the retail box, all that is stated in the UK is;

"INTERNET CONNECTION, PERIODIC ONLINE AUTHENTICATION AND END USER AGREEMENT REQUIRED TO PLAY"

This is just disgusting and deceptive, IMHO this is "bait and switch"

Comment by: DXR88 (Sep 20, 2008 01:57)

Quote:

---

You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

---

Never said anything about developers being dumb, but hey if thats what you wanna read into by all means go ahead.

So who do you develop for? You must really like this drm there installing on your games, huh?

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 20, 2008 09:20)

Originally posted by DXR88:

---

Quote:

---

You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

---

Never said anything about developers being dumb, but hey if thats what you wanna read into by all means go ahead.

So who do you develop for? You must really like this drm there installing on your games, huh?

---

You implied they were dumb by claiming they were basically bullied into accepting things like drm, and like little programmer sheep could be herded and exploited by the industry - helplessly being bought against their will by the big software houses, and it just doesn't happen like that.

Can't say who I program for, and I absolutely hate DRM - I stopped buying music when Sony started shipping CD's with rootkits and digital costs twice the amount, I stopped buying DVD's when I had to sit through unskippable piracy warning adverts - even though it's a legit DVD, and I've stopped buying games that ship with unfair restrictions on them, like spore has.

The problem is that they won't give up on DRM in games, but they also don't want to change their pricing model - and they can't keep selling games at the same price in the same packaging, but put unfair restrictions on how you can use it... people will react.

Comment by: 13thHouR (Sep 20, 2008 11:20)

Originally posted by AtiLaw:

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The problem is that they won't give up on DRM in games, but they also don't want to change their pricing model - and they can't keep selling games at the same price in the same packaging, but put unfair restrictions on how you can use it... people will react.

---

See here is the thing, people hate DRM once they either learn of the restrictions imposed, or are already aware.

People then will stop purchasing their malware infested creations and they lose money.

There is then two outcomes, the game industry starts to see lower revenue being taken, because people are either fed up and choosing to pirate, or just not purchase their empty restrictive licences.

So the companies can decide whether to continue to screw over the customers or they can listen and change just as the music industry has with digital downloads. If people can make enough noise, which will start to filter down to ill or misinformed people, the corporations will have no option.


Amazon and EA are both guilty here of being anti-consumer corporate pigs because of "Guilt By Omission".

Both should inform customers of the restrictive DRM but both failed, on the retail boxes all that is stated is;

"INTERNET CONNECTION, PERIODIC ONLINE AUTHENTICATION AND END USER AGREEMENT REQUIRED TO PLAY"

And the EULA can't be read until you open the game an go to install it, so by this time you are too late to be able to return the software.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 21, 2008 00:30)

Originally posted by AtiLaw:

---

Originally posted by DXR88:

---

Quote:

---

You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

---

Never said anything about developers being dumb, but hey if thats what you wanna read into by all means go ahead.

So who do you develop for? You must really like this drm there installing on your games, huh?

---

You implied they were dumb by claiming they were basically bullied into accepting things like drm, and like little programmer sheep could be herded and exploited by the industry - helplessly being bought against their will by the big software houses, and it just doesn't happen like that.

Can't say who I program for, and I absolutely hate DRM - I stopped buying music when Sony started shipping CD's with rootkits and digital costs twice the amount, I stopped buying DVD's when I had to sit through unskippable piracy warning adverts - even though it's a legit DVD, and I've stopped buying games that ship with unfair restrictions on them, like spore has.

The problem is that they won't give up on DRM in games, but they also don't want to change their pricing model - and they can't keep selling games at the same price in the same packaging, but put unfair restrictions on how you can use it... people will react.

---

it was never implied or even said, by either dxr88 or myself that developers are stupid, never once did either of this said.

maybe you should read my post again

Quote:

---

which i never objected to any of those things, i had merely proposed a solution that would allow for the drm, yet still make sense for people to buy the product.

as for developers...last i heard they make $70,000+ a year on average
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18406129/#storyContinued
Its an old article but still from a major news source

when you compare that in ratio to a 12.5 billion dollar industry, it sure dont sound like much, but think of how many people were involved, all of them making a very healthy 5 digit figure.

On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people, there is much more in the computer industry than just video game development. If developers are being treated so badly, why aren't they pursuing other computer related fields.

---

ok if you take a deep breathe and read it slowly...
it says "On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people,"

ANYTHING BUT stupid...doesnt sound like there is any implication that they are studid, if anything they are very smart people.

so, you seriously dont have any clue in what your writing, or are you just guessing? perhaps, you are just here to create a stir.

Comment by: Bradderss (Sep 21, 2008 00:47)

The funny thing is if EA really care there will probably be law suits and stuff going out to people who download games illegally and they can charge an exstortionate amount because of it, as is the latest trend in the uk, £300 for a game which cost like £12 to buy. This means that they will have increased revenue for sueing the public who disagree with DRM.

Unfortunatly EA wants to make money and protect its product, where as the people who actually sit down and make it just want to make a great game.

I can't wait for the next sales figures to see how badly the DRM has penalized EA.

I for one am glad i spotted something saying about the DRM as i was going to buy the game but because of it i'm not. Surely EA realise that because they are over protective of there game they are losing out on alot of £30 - £40 sales, for something stupid.

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 21, 2008 08:38)

Originally posted by Bladerz05:

---

Originally posted by AtiLaw:

---

Originally posted by DXR88:

---

Quote:

---

You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

---

Never said anything about developers being dumb, but hey if thats what you wanna read into by all means go ahead.

So who do you develop for? You must really like this drm there installing on your games, huh?

---

You implied they were dumb by claiming they were basically bullied into accepting things like drm, and like little programmer sheep could be herded and exploited by the industry - helplessly being bought against their will by the big software houses, and it just doesn't happen like that.

Can't say who I program for, and I absolutely hate DRM - I stopped buying music when Sony started shipping CD's with rootkits and digital costs twice the amount, I stopped buying DVD's when I had to sit through unskippable piracy warning adverts - even though it's a legit DVD, and I've stopped buying games that ship with unfair restrictions on them, like spore has.

The problem is that they won't give up on DRM in games, but they also don't want to change their pricing model - and they can't keep selling games at the same price in the same packaging, but put unfair restrictions on how you can use it... people will react.

---

it was never implied or even said, by either dxr88 or myself that developers are stupid, never once did either of this said.

maybe you should read my post again

Quote:

---

which i never objected to any of those things, i had merely proposed a solution that would allow for the drm, yet still make sense for people to buy the product.

as for developers...last i heard they make $70,000+ a year on average
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18406129/#storyContinued
Its an old article but still from a major news source

when you compare that in ratio to a 12.5 billion dollar industry, it sure dont sound like much, but think of how many people were involved, all of them making a very healthy 5 digit figure.

On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people, there is much more in the computer industry than just video game development. If developers are being treated so badly, why aren't they pursuing other computer related fields.

---

ok if you take a deep breathe and read it slowly...
it says "On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people,"

ANYTHING BUT stupid...doesnt sound like there is any implication that they are studid, if anything they are very smart people.

so, you seriously dont have any clue in what your writing, or are you just guessing? perhaps, you are just here to create a stir.

---

Not once did I claim you said they were stupid, infact, I was even sort of trying to back you up because I had read your posts, which I thought were pretty spot on.

I do like to create a stir though. :) I think I just got spurred on by some things DXR88 was saying, like throwing made up figures of "only" 20% revenue going to developers showing how hard done to they are, or that M$Studio, EA etc are prisons for developers.

One bit he did write made me laugh though, because it sort of happens to most developers at one time or other when upper management get involved - in any industry, so is most accurate thing he said, and that was:

Quote:

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Some developers have no want for drm to be on there product, but EA looks at the developers and goes who the hell are you, get back to work.

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Add to that the sound of a cracking whip at the end and a muffled scream, and it's my office on a Friday morning! ;)

Comment by: LordRuss (Sep 21, 2008 21:09)

Folks,

Again I reiterate,

The folks that spent all the hard work and time, energy, blood, sweat, tears and effort have all been paid or were given another game to work on or just simply given the pink slip.

Corporations have 'paid them'. The corporations are the ones looking for the bloated paycheck off the skins of their slaves.

Talk about, "The more things change, the more they stay the same..."

This is the way things have been done for eons. Someone busts their ass to make something, a fat cat comes in and buys it cheap, then does no more work than to place it on a shelf and wait for some one to pay 3x's the original value.

The only 'real' people being hurt by piracy is the bastards that didn't do a days work at all getting something to market.

THAT, is the cold hard facts of business.

Peace
.
PS, I forgot to mention. Couple of folks mention that there is a big push on technology once purchased by a conglomerate. That isn't completely the truth. Look at the music industry. A young group hungry to make it in the big leagues gets eaten up by the corporation. Been going on for decades with no end in site. Why do you think groups never make it past 2 albums.

The original fire and spontaneity is bought and forced to market only to be squashed out under ridiculous time constraints and forced creativity. The young company folds and the corporation states it as a huge loss on their tax budget to the shareholders and rake in a huge tax break.

Comment by: Bladerz05 (Sep 22, 2008 21:50)

Originally posted by AtiLaw:

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Originally posted by Bladerz05:

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Originally posted by AtiLaw:

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Originally posted by DXR88:

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Quote:

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You seriously have no clue about the industry - do you even know any developers who work in the industry, or are you just guessing how it all works? I know people in the industry, I'm also a developer - and trust me, they get a hell of alot more money than other developers.

And yes, the gaming industry (and don't fool yourself, it's been a big industry for years) is consolidating into larger development companies, and yes, there exist some shady guys in suits pushing technology they don't understand fully, like DRM, but the developers are not helpless victims here - they want to protect their investment as much as the next guy. Infact, there are companies now not even developing for the PC because they can't figure a good way to stop piracy, so it's easier and they get more money just targeting consoles.

So don't kid yourself, they arn't helpless, they arn't stupid - and they are not the victims. Most startups actually want to be acquired by larger companies, some dream for it - it's a good way to get a massive cash-injection to push the boundaries in your game, or often the only way you can afford to finish making it as it's not cheap to create games. Unlike other types of companies you don't get to earn money while you are developing a game, so for years you are actually just draining money and resources, in the hope that when you sell it will cover those costs, and some startups never finish their game, because the costs are just to high - either they underestimate the development costs, or they just never had the money to begin with.

It takes massive resources to create modern pc games, and the only people who have those resources are massive companies or extremely rich startups. I'm not talking about some mario brothers 3 clone written in flash with maybe a single designer for the drawings, and an engineer for the nuts and bolts, I'm talking next gen stuff like Crysis, that take massive teams of people over years to create. Or are you proposing developers should stop making games like COD4, GoW, Civilisation and Halo, and instead work years without pay living in their parents house for several years, because you don't like the EA stamp or MSStudios stamp on your game?? Grow up... DRM is bad, but only when they take the p*ss with the restrictions and are not upfront with it all - which is what's happening here at the minute.

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Never said anything about developers being dumb, but hey if thats what you wanna read into by all means go ahead.

So who do you develop for? You must really like this drm there installing on your games, huh?

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You implied they were dumb by claiming they were basically bullied into accepting things like drm, and like little programmer sheep could be herded and exploited by the industry - helplessly being bought against their will by the big software houses, and it just doesn't happen like that.

Can't say who I program for, and I absolutely hate DRM - I stopped buying music when Sony started shipping CD's with rootkits and digital costs twice the amount, I stopped buying DVD's when I had to sit through unskippable piracy warning adverts - even though it's a legit DVD, and I've stopped buying games that ship with unfair restrictions on them, like spore has.

The problem is that they won't give up on DRM in games, but they also don't want to change their pricing model - and they can't keep selling games at the same price in the same packaging, but put unfair restrictions on how you can use it... people will react.

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it was never implied or even said, by either dxr88 or myself that developers are stupid, never once did either of this said.

maybe you should read my post again

Quote:

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which i never objected to any of those things, i had merely proposed a solution that would allow for the drm, yet still make sense for people to buy the product.

as for developers...last i heard they make $70,000+ a year on average
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18406129/#storyContinued
Its an old article but still from a major news source

when you compare that in ratio to a 12.5 billion dollar industry, it sure dont sound like much, but think of how many people were involved, all of them making a very healthy 5 digit figure.

On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people, there is much more in the computer industry than just video game development. If developers are being treated so badly, why aren't they pursuing other computer related fields.

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ok if you take a deep breathe and read it slowly...
it says "On top of that, (i think you would agree) developers are anything but stupid people,"

ANYTHING BUT stupid...doesnt sound like there is any implication that they are studid, if anything they are very smart people.

so, you seriously dont have any clue in what your writing, or are you just guessing? perhaps, you are just here to create a stir.

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Not once did I claim you said they were stupid, infact, I was even sort of trying to back you up because I had read your posts, which I thought were pretty spot on.

I do like to create a stir though. :) I think I just got spurred on by some things DXR88 was saying, like throwing made up figures of "only" 20% revenue going to developers showing how hard done to they are, or that M$Studio, EA etc are prisons for developers.

One bit he did write made me laugh though, because it sort of happens to most developers at one time or other when upper management get involved - in any industry, so is most accurate thing he said, and that was:

Quote:

---

Some developers have no want for drm to be on there product, but EA looks at the developers and goes who the hell are you, get back to work.

---

Add to that the sound of a cracking whip at the end and a muffled scream, and it's my office on a Friday morning! ;)

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well then, that would be my mistake, and i owe you an apology for my lashing out.

things being cleared up, agreed

Comment by: EvilDeeds (Sep 23, 2008 09:54)

Agreed! :)