News

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 05, 2007 17:12)

BobbyBlu
and we know you are a raving raver who cant state facts,THANK YOU EASSUSHI FOR KEEPING US ALL HONEST!

facts are lovely things.

FIGHT THE M.A.F.I.A.A.
Sony has declared war on importers the consumer will be next with CD's,Videos/Games not far behind that....boycott SONY!
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8062.cfm

Comment by: BobbyBlu (Mar 05, 2007 17:17)

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and we know you are a raving raver who cant state facts

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I have showed facts to you so much that im fact out.If i do you & your Sony hater puppets say it some kind of PR spin so why waste.

Back on topic:

I glad to see Sony is stepping up there game because this is clutch time right now with the Eur release around the corner & The new titles Rollin out this month it good to see this going on.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 05, 2007 17:34)

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[quote]and we know you are a raving raver who cant state facts

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I have showed facts to you so much that im fact out.If i do you & your Sony hater puppets say it some kind of PR spend so why waste.[/quote]"facts" dripping with PR spin and and blind faith in sony....
Sorry but I think they can do better you might like where the state of gaming is but I hate the shallows....so meh.

Comment by: BobbyBlu (Mar 05, 2007 17:37)

Back on topic:

I can't wait til they release the DVD upscaling for the PS3 just one thing that going to make the PS3 a much better system than it is.

Microsoft: Ps3 cant do 60fps on 1080p. Guess what they were WRONG!!!!!
(11/19/05 - 9/19/06) Microsoft: Sony's 1080p support on PS3 is all Hype and Not Needed.
(9/20/06) Microsoft: Xbox 360 to add 1080p support.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 05, 2007 17:49)

Originally posted by BobbyBlu:

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Back on topic:

I can't wait til they release the DVD upscaling for the PS3 just one thing that going to make the PS3 a much better system than it is.

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marginal upscale filter to clean out the blocks for digital based TVs?

its nice but I don't see this as helping it any...

FIGHT THE M.A.F.I.A.A.
Sony has declared war on importers the consumer will be next with CD's,Videos/Games not far behind that....boycott SONY!
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8062.cfm

Comment by: eatsushi (Mar 05, 2007 17:56)

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marginal upscale filter to clean out the blocks for digital based TVs?

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DVD upconversion is much more complex than just "cleaning out blocks." Software upconversion and scaling can be done very well with software. Just see the excellent results on HTPC's running FFDShow, DScaler and other tools. Hardware based upconversions rely on chips such as the Faroudja/Genesis and the Silicon Optix Reon VX.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 05, 2007 18:05)

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[quote]marginal upscale filter to clean out the blocks for digital based TVs?

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DVD upconversion is much more complex than just "cleaning out blocks." Software upconversion and scaling can be done very well with software. Just see the excellent results on HTPC's running FFDShow, DScaler and other tools. Hardware based upconversions rely on chips such as the Faroudja/Genesis and the Silicon Optix Reon VX.[/quote]*puts foot in my mouth*

I believe I just had my arse handed to me *L*

I have not been keeping up that much with the PS3,I do know some about the movie side of it,it has the better outputs and is a solid BR/DVD player.

I am just to damn pisssed at other things they do to fully see the "good" things they do,
*irish/scottish voice kicks in*
me balance is broken I need more booze!

>>

FIGHT THE M.A.F.I.A.A.
Sony has declared war on importers the consumer will be next with CD's,Videos/Games not far behind that....boycott SONY!
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/8062.cfm

Comment by: oofRome (Mar 05, 2007 18:20)

Even an upscaling announcement turned into an argument.

Good news for ps3 owners, especially those using it as their primary dvd/blu-ray player.

Comment by: hughjars (Mar 05, 2007 21:04)

When a £30/$60 DVD player can upscale in an acceptable if unspectacular manner & without too much trouble it's fairly tragic that this had to be an issue with the PS3.

It's also quite true that some software upscaling is very good.......but let's not be kidding ourselves here.

It's an after-thought.
Cos people complained (and some even laughed that they'd left it out along with a proper 720p native setting).

Just remember that if they were prepared to piss Europe off by ditching the PS2 chip just to save $30 is anyone seriously imagining upscaling will be something they spend any money on so that the PS3 does it well!!??.

A good quality hardware solution says quality to me (and on the kind of bulk buy deal they'd have gotten it's not even as though it'd have been so expensive).
If they'd stuck a decent quality Faroudja chip or even a nice Mediatech in it that would be one thing.

But let's face it and let's not kid ourselves, almost all the news about this machine screams cheapo cost-cutting, not high quality.....which is outrageous when you consider the price.

I think it's pretty fair that people mention this.

Even the tray-less disc feed is a problem waiting on happening (once it refuses to eject what are you to do then, huh)?

Comment by: error5 (Mar 05, 2007 21:35)

We should point out that the PS3 has software-based BluRay playback that's comparable to or even exceeds that of standalones:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=814045

Here's more information on the PS3's present and future A/V capabilties:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36188
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2.../mobile358.htm

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# The current player converts interlace to Progressive only for SD movies. Right now SCE developers are working to improve DVD picture quality after they implemented YCrCb. After that it's planned to do something for 1080i to 1080p conversion. Though the RAM size can be an obstacle for it, SCE developers say they can do it by splitting the load between Cell and RSX.
# Currently there are complaints from users about non-existent DVD upscaling in the PS3. As for the interlace-to-Progressive conversion before upscaling, the current player has it already. There was a team at the division for broadcast equipments at Sony that does research for improving image quality by using the NVIDIA shader language. They ported it onto RSX. After Cell does noise reduction and other filters, RSX does interlace-to-Progressive conversion. Though the current algorithm has bugs for some video sources, SCE says the conversion precision will be upgraded by future updates. Also the noise reduction filter is currently optimized for video sources with relatively many MPEG noises recorded with a video recorder. SCE knows lack of picture details because of it and will provide new default values for noise reduction by checking recording formats and media IDs for DVD discs. As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX. They also plan to use the non-original luminance information generated in upscaling for HDMI 1.3 deep color.

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Plus - read post #3456 here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthrea...&page=116&pp=30

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Originally Posted by bplewis24
Gradthrawn...doesn't this information discredit the rumors that there was some type of super-scaling chip built into the PS3 that has been dormant as of now?

Brandon

I think people are confusing multiple issues. From my understanding, it's a compound problem. But, when someone says scaling, its implications are applied universally. The hardware scaler in question (whether super or not), before January, had already been confirmed as there, but "unavailable." Meaning devs could see the chip, but, per TRC requirements, were not allowed to use it. A recent SDK update allowed for horizontal scaling as well as other previously unsupported resolutions. This, as far as I know, pertains to games only. The issue in question for DVD upscaling, I believe to be completely unrelated. Since everything is handled in software (ie programming made for the Cell and RSX), the DVD upscaling issue can be handled independently of getting the software for the hardware scaler up and running (completely up and running). From the looks of it to me, Sony will handle all non-game related scaling via software (as they do now, with the XMB, BD, etc), while simultaneously lending game developers a hand by getting them proper support for the hardware scaler. I could be completely off on this, but based on the way things are now (BD scaling for 480i/p, 1080i/p, XMB scaling, DVD de-interlacing), and the scattered information out there, that’s what seems most likely at the moment. I get the distinct feeling that whomever is handling the DVD playback side of things for the PS3, they want it handled "by hand," possibly to obtain results that the hardware scaler cannot offer.
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As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX.

That’s not to say the scaler could not be used for that, or that it will not. But at the moment, the issues appear to be independent, and coincidently, happening at the same time and both related to "scaling."

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Comment by: hade (Mar 06, 2007 01:46)

*deleted*

Comment by: hade (Mar 06, 2007 01:55)

i think sony is doing a pretty good job of trying to iron out some of the wrinkles here. keep the good news coming

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Even the tray-less disc feed is a problem waiting on happening (once it refuses to eject what are you to do then, huh)?

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wow, so its come down to this now. people must be pretty desperate if this is what they come up with in their spare time. i hope you were joking...

actually if my memory is correct between the ps3/360, i believe its the 360 that is known to eat discs.

But Yeah, What.....Will.....We.....Do....lol

Comment by: Andrew691 (Mar 06, 2007 05:50)

I dont like the tray-less disc feeder thing, I remember at school a few years ago when everything was still running on IMACS they had them in them and they always used to cause the data layer on top of discs to flake and peal of stuffing the disc. This being for burnt CD's of coarse as pressed discs have their data layer in the middle so it wouldnt damage them.

I reckon Sony are doing a good job of fixing up their mistakes though, they've realised they messed up alot and that people arent happy about (they cant really control lack of games) it so they are doing as much as possible to fix it, backwards compatibility is supposedly at over 1000 games, DVD upconvertings next, plus all of the other bug fixing they are constantly doing.
One good thing pricewise for me, the PS3 is actually $100 cheaper where I am than the PS2 was when released and as lots of people are making more money than back then I can see the console being sold out for a very long time. That along with all the new EU game releases I can see a definite increase in sales for Sony, the PS3 hasnt yet crashed and burned and im thinking its not going to.

Comment by: hughjars (Mar 06, 2007 10:15)

Originally posted by hade:

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wow, so its come down to this now.

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- Er. excuse me?
I do hope you're not being serious (and so blind).

It hasn't "come down" to anything of the kind, it's just yet another problem to note inherent in the basic design.
A rather obvious problem that's liable to cause problems for more than a few as the inevitable wear and tear take their toll.

.....and much as they haven't sold so many (forget that ridiculous 'shipped' cr@p) so the reports haven't been so numerous yet there are reports knocking about that several people have had problems with them.

Originally posted by error5:

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the PS3 has software-based BluRay playback that's comparable to or even exceeds that of standalones

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- I'm not sure I'd be making claims comparing the other BD stand-alones.
They're not exactly an impressive bunch, grossly over-priced and under-spec'd
(depending on what spec you go for - there are 4 BD specs out at the mo & the whole BD spec issue itself isn't even settled yet; that's supposedly happening at the end of this year.....so all you early adopters mind out that you don't get caught out and left out in the cold with an instantly obsolete machine!).

I have been interested in hearing tales that some folks are not finding their PS3s to be as silent as was initially claimed (which could be very annoying as a video player).

There's still no news on the life-expectancy either I gather, 3 years normal use was claimed for standalone blue laser BD/HD-DVD video use but what happens to that life-span when it's used as a video player and a games machine for so many more hours a day, hmmmm?

Originally posted by andrew 691:

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the PS3 hasnt yet crashed and burned and im thinking its not going to.

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- I don't know of anyone seriously saying it will "crash" and "burn" (but of a 'strawman' argument that IMO).

They will still sell.

What it won't be doing though is selling in numbers anything like the numbers of the PS2 nor at the levels originally planned, not at that price ticket.

The fanboy crowd can enjoy getting bilked, the people with sense (and into these things) will await the inevitable price drops.

......and the point still stands; ripping out the PS2 hardware to save approx $30 does not smack of a 'high quality' approach.
So no, I really don't expect them to spend any money on a good quality software upscaling option.

We'll all see soon enough.

Comment by: eatsushi (Mar 06, 2007 10:54)

Thanks to error 5 for the link to the highly informative albeit technical article.

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If they'd stuck a decent quality Faroudja chip or even a nice Mediatech in it that would be one thing.

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Why put in a dedicated scaling chip when they have the Cell and RSX which are vastly more powerful when running the right software. You need these chips in standalone players that don't have CPU's and GPU's. Even the XBox 360's upscaling over VGA is software based.

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I'm not sure I'd be making claims comparing the other BD stand-alones.

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If you can't compare the PS3's BluRay playback to the standalones, to what can you compare it to?

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I have been interested in hearing tales that some folks are not finding their PS3s to be as silent as was initially claimed (which could be very annoying as a video player).

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Anyone with a halfway decent surround sound system at moderate volume levels won't notice the miniscule amount of noise coming from the PS3 during movie playback. Even my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player is noisier.

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We'll all see soon enough.

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Thanks for keeping an open mind.

Comment by: hughjars (Mar 06, 2007 13:10)

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Why put in a dedicated scaling chip when they have the Cell and RSX which are vastly more powerful when running the right software.

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- I suppose the answer to that would be that maybe the Cell in PS3 isn't quite so impressive when it comes down to it.
IIRC the Cells have 'issues' in talking to each other and are hard to program for.

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If you can't compare the PS3's BluRay playback to the standalones, to what can you compare it to?

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- Granted it's all you've got, but it's still true that 1st & 2nd gen BD players are wildly over-priced and piss-poor in terms of spec/features that huge price tag gets you.

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Anyone with a halfway decent surround sound system at moderate volume levels won't notice the miniscule amount of noise coming from the PS3 during movie playback. Even my Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player is noisier.

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- That's as maybe, but we have moved well away from the fairy tales of the PS3 being 'silent', haven't we, hmmmm?

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Thanks for keeping an open mind.

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- Who are you to be thanking me on this, Sony or connected to Sony in some way?

I've read enough to know that the PS3 (especially at the UK price) is not for me.
When it drops to around the £150 (from the present risible £425) I might give it some consideration.

.......or is this just more of the ludicrous nonsense we've seen here from time to time that tries to bully people with absurd claims that 'unless you own one you can't comment' or debate on the basis of what you've read about this machine, huh?

Comment by: eatsushi (Mar 06, 2007 13:29)

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I suppose the answer to that would be that maybe the Cell in PS3 isn't quite so impressive when it comes down to it.

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...and that answer would be wrong.

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Granted it's all you've got, but it's still true that 1st & 2nd gen BD players are wildly over-priced and piss-poor in terms of spec/features that huge price tag gets you.

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So you propose to wait for 3rd or 4th gen players to compare the PS3? This just proves the point that the PS3 is impressive as a BluRay player.

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That's as maybe, but we have moved well away from the fairy tales of the PS3 being 'silent', haven't we, hmmmm?

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I still have to see anyone here claiming that the PS3 is silent so claiming that there is a "fairy tale" is in itself a fairy tale. I have seen claims that the PS3 is "quiet" and to this I agree. The PS3 is the quietest of all my equipment that have fan-based cooling. The loudest that I have are the Xbox 360 and my Panny PTAE900u projector.

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Who are you to be thanking me on this, Sony or connected to Sony in some way?

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Now you're bordering on the paranoid. You should relax a bit. Sony isn't out to get you.

Comment by: error5 (Mar 06, 2007 13:34)

Better give it up eatsushi. His standards are so high that I don't think this hughjars fellow will ever find a piece of electronic equipment that will satisfy him.

Comment by: eatsushi (Mar 06, 2007 13:36)

You're right. I'll keep quiet from now on. LOL!

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 06, 2007 14:35)

the Cell is not as magical as Sony said it was at least they took a year to polish coding a bit,but tis far from the super computer in a can they claimed.

and yes the PS3 is harder to code for but lets face it thats almost a non issues now adays for 50% of devs who are part of large publishers and are given a ton of tolls to work with.

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BTW I need some more PS3 links feed me :3

Comment by: hughjars (Mar 06, 2007 15:12)

Originally posted by error5:

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His standards are so high that I don't think this hughjars fellow will ever find a piece of electronic equipment that will satisfy him.

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- Don't be so accepting, you'll never see flaws corrected and obvious problems addressed if all you ever do is applaud any and everything 'they' serve up to you.

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This just proves the point that the PS3 is impressive as a BluRay player.

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- It really doesn't "prove" anything other than how poor the other BD players are.

Just because the PS3 is 'better' than them does not in itself make the PS3 a particularly 'great' or even remotely close to being what I would call an "impressive" BD player, not at that price.

(and things like the missing scaler, no analogue audio outputs - so those 7.1 audio capabilities are severely limited if you don't have an HDMI receiver.....which is to say like almost everyone - along with not having a proper native setting for 720p are proof enough of that)

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Now you're bordering on the paranoid.

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- *Laughable* You wish.

If only it were just mere paranoia.

Sony have been repeatedly exposed for running supposedly 'independent' web-sites, fake blogs and various other 'viral marketing' tactics
(including, for instance, contaminating many public public discussion boards as they try to pack them with shills blindly promoting their CE products at every turn - especially in the gaming world......

.....which is how come so many HD-DVD / BD 'debates' involving the PS3 are continually being reduced to a ridiculous 'well, what about the XBox 360'?)

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You should relax a bit.

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- It's ok, I'm perfectly relaxed, thank you.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Mar 06, 2007 15:17)

Sony has a PR machine MS would be proud of ,if MS countered every slight with OTT PR...uhg its a nightmare...

Comment by: hughjars (Mar 06, 2007 15:56)

If anything zippy I'd say it was deeply counter-productive, I'm glad they don't.

Someone like Amir over on the avsforums makes no secret of who he is and what he does, he just informs people of what's new and discussses the various issues with people who want to ask him questions on those boards.

That strikes me as a far more preferable approach - it's also treating potential punters with actual respect and not the unstated but obvious contempt the 'shill' concept embodies so clearly.

People (grown-up adult people, that is) genuinely interested in the state of play of the various CE items are (IMHO) rarely going to be convinced by such obviously blindly partisan cheer-leading and flag-waving.

Comment by: eatsushi (Mar 06, 2007 16:09)

amirm is the exception. If you haven't noticed there's enough "shill" on avsforums coming from both sides of the format war resulting in threads being closed and posters getting banned. I'd say the war over there is worse than what's here.

Comment by: DragonRM (Mar 09, 2007 01:36)

Yeah... I currentely use my 360 to upscale to 1080p but I've used a hardware solution on the same one and it's still a noticeable difference. I don't wanna spend much more money on it right now so I'll probalby just pick up one of the newer Oppo players so I'm not stuck with the 360 until the HD disc formats stabilize a bit more or a more affordable universal player shows up on the market :)