News

Comment by: Ofnir1 (Jun 15, 2007 20:13)

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The Church also said it is considering legal action depending on Sony's response. "It is well known that Manchester has a gun crime problem," The Bishop of Manchester, the Rt Rev Nigel McCulloch, told ITV News.

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So there are a lot of problems in Manchester with gun crimes, OK.

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For a global manufacturer to re-create one of our great cathedrals with a photo-realistic quality and then encourage people to have gun battles in the building is beyond belief and highly irresponsible.

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So, according to them, Sony is actually encouraging players to bring their guns into THAT specific building and have a gun battle in there in order to defame Manchesters image. This would make sense if the mission was titled "Destroy Manchesters image! Blow everything to pieces!" and if there weren't alien invaders bent out on annihilating humanity.

Even if the reverend sues Sony and wins the case, their probem with gun crime is still going to exist, so what would the reverend achieve by suing Sony? The only thing that seems feasable is, you guessed it right, money. Who isn't driven by the sin which they claim to be against nowadays?

Of course, people don't just walk up to others and shoot them for no reason unless they have a mental problem, so what is the real cause here? Gang violence? Drug trade? Illegal arms trade? All three? Gun crime seems more to be the symptom and not the cause. I'm sure the reverend is old enough to understand that R:FOM is JUST a video game, but something tells me he's up to something else.

Comment by: Ofnir1 (Jun 15, 2007 20:23)

Originally posted by gleone:

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Religion is out dated. It only spreads hate & causes Wars.

Play GRAW2 on PS3 instead. It comes out in August.

The End!

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Very true, and history backs you up on that. I myself think that religion is a tool to mind control the masses, but we all have our own take.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 15, 2007 20:53)

I don't know why people are still discussing this as if it was still 'current'.

It's all over.

Sony admitted it was Manchester Cathedral they had used and apolgised.

The C of E accepted that and that's it, all over.

Sony got their pathetic little bit of free additional publicity from the fuss and will face no penalties for the offense and upset they deliberately caused......which was their dreary & wholly predictable little 'point' all along.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6758381.stm

Comment by: sclgwhite (Jun 15, 2007 21:58)

Admission is made that Manchester has a gun crime problem? How can this be, since handguns were banned a decade ago (1997), and the faithful champion shooters of England must spend 10,000 Lbs per year travelling to Switzerland to practice, where their guns are kept locked in an armory at a shooting range in Zurich?

Of course, I'm ridiculing those who cannot learn that crime cannot be deterred when the criminal has the advantage. Which is why our Thomas Jefferson said, "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.", and why our Second Amendment guarantees it.

Quoting from a letter I received last week from my U.S. Congressman, "Since 1991, 23 more states have adopted some form of a right to carry gun law, and the number of privately-owned guns has risen by nearly 70 million while violent crime has decreased by 38 percent. In fact, research in the 1990's by the University of Chicago on the impact of concealed carry permits found that on average concealed handgun laws reduced murder by 8.5 percent, rape by 5 percent and severe assault by 7 percent. This trend continues today, with statistics showing that in 2005 right to carry states had on average lower violent crime rates than the rest of the country..."

Handguns have been banned for three decades in Washington, D.C., and crime has gotten so bad that the ban is being reversed.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 06:47)

Well besides the selective cherry-picking of what the US 2nd Amendment actually says (with regard to bearing arms & malitias) I'll take a comparison between the gun crime and murder rates between the USA & the UK anyday of the week.

The British murder rate is approx one quarter that of the USA's.

US figures are appalling and have never been lower than ours when compared.

Comment by: dblbogey7 (Jun 16, 2007 08:01)

Originally posted by hughjars:

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The British murder rate is approx one quarter that of the USA's.

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It looks like the Brits want to catch up though:

http://newsbusters.org/node/12267

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British Gun Crime up 242 Percent; Post Says 'Laws Seen As Curbing Attacks'

Posted by Ken Shepherd on April 24, 2007 - 13:06.
Update below jump with related items from NewsBusters.

This morning, NewsBusters contributing editor Dan Gainor brought this Washington Post article to my attention:

"Britain's Gun Laws Seen as Curbing Attacks"

But the problem is that while anti-gun activists recited those talking points in Post foreign service correspondent Mary Jordan's April 24 story, the empirical evidence shows otherwise.

The number of crimes in which a handgun was used in England and Wales has risen from 299 in 1995 to 1,024 last year. Offenses committed with all types of firearms, including air guns, have also increased.

That's an increase of 725 gun crimes in 11 years, a 242 percent increase. Britain already had strict gun control before the 1996 Dunblane, Scotland, school shooting, and in 1997 both Conservative and Labour governments pushed through fresh gun control legislation banning small caliber handguns.

Jordan did note that gun fatalities are down at just 50 deaths in the U.K. last year from 55 in 1995, yet Jordan carefully inserted a caveat earlier in the same paragraph.

"According to government statistics, the number of people killed by guns has essentially stayed the same, with dips and spikes, as before the 1997 gun control laws went into effect," she wrote.

"Dips and spikes?" Perhaps like the spike in total homicides in England and Wales in the years following the 1997 gun laws? Homicides peaked at over 1,000 in the 2002-3 survey period. The number has since fallen to just above 1997-8 levels.

What about the oft-repeated meme that gun-free Britain is much less violent than the United States? Jordan doesn't raise that meme per se, but neither does she compare apples to apples. Has Britain historically been less violent, more violent, or similarly violent per capita to the United States? Jordan doesn't say.

The better comparison, in fact, is if Britain has become more or less violent since the 1997 gun laws.

The notion that it's become less violent doesn't wash according to data from the British government.

What about "possession of weapons." Surely arrests for illegal weapons is on a downward trend, right?

Wrong.

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Violent crime in the UK pre and post 1997 gun control laws:

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 08:24)

You can play with the stats and concentrate on rates of change/increase etc etc all you like but the fact still stands.

The British murder rate is currently approx one quarter that of the USA's.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 08:26)

Originally posted by hughjars:

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You can play with the stats and concentrate on rates of change/increase etc etc all you like but the fact still stands.

The British murder rate is currently approx one quarter that of the USA's.

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......and delude yourself all you like but we're not going to be reversing the gun ban either.

There's not a single political party in the UK (besides the nationalist nutter fringe which doesn't even run a local town council never mind our UK Gov) which is standing to increase gun ownership
(by any means at all).

Comment by: dblbogey7 (Jun 16, 2007 08:39)

I guess you also have the right to live with the delusion that gun control laws curb gun crime.

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Admission is made that Manchester has a gun crime problem? How can this be, since handguns were banned a decade ago (1997), and the faithful champion shooters of England must spend 10,000 Lbs per year travelling to Switzerland to practice, where their guns are kept locked in an armory at a shooting range in Zurich?

Of course, I'm ridiculing those who cannot learn that crime cannot be deterred when the criminal has the advantage. Which is why our Thomas Jefferson said, "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.", and why our Second Amendment guarantees it.

Quoting from a letter I received last week from my U.S. Congressman, "Since 1991, 23 more states have adopted some form of a right to carry gun law, and the number of privately-owned guns has risen by nearly 70 million while violent crime has decreased by 38 percent. In fact, research in the 1990's by the University of Chicago on the impact of concealed carry permits found that on average concealed handgun laws reduced murder by 8.5 percent, rape by 5 percent and severe assault by 7 percent. This trend continues today, with statistics showing that in 2005 right to carry states had on average lower violent crime rates than the rest of the country..."

Handguns have been banned for three decades in Washington, D.C., and crime has gotten so bad that the ban is being reversed.

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Excellent points sclgwhite.

Also check out Nephilim's Polite Gun Debate thread:

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/325933

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Anyone inclined to be a thug will have already made the choice to be one and acquired a hot gun long before being given one :)

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Words of wisdom from Nephilim.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 10:11)

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I guess you also have the right to live with the delusion that gun control laws curb gun crime.

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- The only people 'deluded' in this are those who would seek to use minor fluctuations in the British gun crime stats as if it somehow 'proves' gun ownership is a 'good thing'.

'Adding more guns' is not anybody here's (excepting that previously mentioned neo-nazi nationalist nutter fringe's) idea of a helpful strategy to the current problems.

The central point you cannot escape is that despite those minor fluctuations the UK murder rate is one quarter that of the USA's, it has always been lower and it will always be lower (cos almost no-one will vote for the proposition of 'adding more guns').

Nevermind the rest of the carnage that widespread and barely controlled gun ownership has brought the US
(maimings from accidents, lethal domestic violence and the whole range of abuse & mental illnesses they help foster and/or spawn.)

Much of our current problem stems from the import of the US culture of the 'gangsta' and our idiot young boys/men aiming to adopt & emulate it; we can well do without that other insanity, widespread and barely controlled gun ownership.

In the UK over the last 20 years we have seen 37 Police Officers murdered in the line of duty (that by all means, not just guns).....

.....would you care to enlighten the board as what the US figure is over the last 2 decades?

I shall not be holding my breath for a straight answer.

Comment by: dblbogey7 (Jun 16, 2007 10:24)

You missed the point entirely.

There is no question as to which country has the higher crime rate. We agree that the US has a higher crime rate than the UK.

The point is that gun control laws don't work. Case in point are the UK statistics pre and post 1997.

No matter how much you try to regulate gun ownership the "thugs" as Nephilim calls them will find a way to own one.

The delusion is that gun control laws can control the "thughs."

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 11:00)

Originally posted by dblbogey7:

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You missed the point entirely.

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- No.

You're avoiding the point as hard as you can.

The UK has low gun crime levels (despite any periodic movements in the percentages) because guns are fundamentally hard to come by here for most people.

Of course there will always be a certain element that can get them (sometimes thanks to individuals in the USA supplying certain groups or individuals here) but nevertheless we sustain, relatively speaking, very low levels of murder by the gun thanks to our gun laws.

You'll also find the USA has higher rape & assault numbers than us in the UK too -

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap )

Originally posted by dblbogey7:

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The point is that gun control laws don't work.

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- If the type of 'logic' many 'gun fans' seem to believe was true then all the criminals here would carry guns.
They don't.
Very few do, in large part because we are a society without a widespread 'gun culture'.

It's also a fantasy to imagine all of the Police here are unarmed too, they are not but guns are strictly controlled even within the British Police.....

.....Police who, when the question is asked, have resolutely said time and again that they do not want to be routinely armed.

BTW those 37 Police Officers that were killed on duty met their end by these means -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4451852.stm

3 were beaten to death
12 were stabbed to death
11 were shot to death
12 were run over and killed by a motor vehicle

Since 1900 the total number of murdered Police Officers is 160 -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4451324.stm

I'm genuinely sorry to say I have little doubt the USA beats that number in an individual year nevermind a whole century.

Originally posted by dblbogey7:

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Case in point are the UK statistics pre and post 1997.

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- Stop trying to cherry pick the stats and the history.

The methods of recording crimes has changed (for instance whereas previously a violent street attack on 3 people would have been counted as 1 instance of a violent crime now it gets counted as 3 separate violent crimes).

The truth is that crime is down here, including gun crime - there's no mystery to this, it's a consequence of our aging population.

Citing percentage changes to crime here is just taking advantage of our low numbers, numbers so low for inatance that Harold Shipman's murders alone skewed the stats for murder in previous years.

Despite a growing population (57 millions - 60 millions) our murder stats in fact have remained pretty static and declined in relation to the population-

748 in 1997/1998
750 in 1998/1999
766 in 1999/2000
850 in 2000/2001
891 in 2001/2002
1,047 in 2002/2003
904 in 2003/2004
869 in 2004/2005
765 in 2005/2006

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb1206chap2a.xls

"The homicide figure for 2002/03 includes 173 murders committed by Harold Shipman in previous years but coming to light in the official inquiry in 2002"

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1004chap123.pdf

So, you can easily see that the blip in 2002's figures is because in 2002, they retrospectively recorded Harold Shipman's murders, which go back to 1975.

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Mar 2007: The number of crimes recorded annually across London has gone down for the fourth year in a row, new figures show.

Gun enabled crime was down by slightly more than 14 per cent and violent crime against individuals (not including robbery) saw a 5 per cent drop.

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http://www.london.gov.uk/londoner/07mar/p8a.jsp?nav=safe

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Jan 2007: Gun crime in England and Wales dropped by 14% last year, the murder rate was down by 9% and overall crime has remained broadly stable, according to Home Office figures published yesterday.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1999201,00.html

.........and here's the real kicker for you, the biggest increase in the stats for recorded 'gun crime' in the UK has been coming from the crimes where the criminal uses replica firearms and air guns.

Note that air guns are the 'other' catagory mentioned below



http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb0305.pdf

You might like to check you violent crime source cos this is the actual British violent crime situation -


http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp

......and here is the 'all crimes' situation -

Comment by: dblbogey7 (Jun 16, 2007 11:19)

We're obviously not on the same page here.

So let's just agree to disagree.

Anyway to those who care, here are the Cato Institute's Gun Control Myths and Realities:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html

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6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.

False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures...

A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let's hope more people are catching on.

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http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200310020833.asp

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While tighter controls on purchasing guns may allay some people's fears, there is not a single academic study showing that background checks reduce violent crime.

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Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 11:29)

Like I said you can call it coincidence all you like but I'll take our murder rate, violent crime rates, rape rates, assault rates (frankly the list is endless) any day of the week.

Crime in the UK (as is the case in much of continental Europe - who often better the UK rates btw) is much lower than in the USA.
Period.

I do not think that is unconnected to our much greater controls on gun ownership
(which, it might surprise you, do not actually amount to total and blanket bans anyways).

People are entitled to their 'beliefs' on this (much like anything else) but I have provided the official stats & links for anyone else to check out and/or follow up.

Crime overall and violent crime has fallen despite a perception to the contrary......people may claim much crime goes unreported but the stats are all we have ever had and that situation with regard to reporting crime has always held true to some degree at all times.

I have also shown conclusively that the UK murder rate is not only very low but that it has remained low
(in fact set against our population rising it has effectively gone down, not up, as a 'rate').

I have also shown that much of the so-called rise in gun crime here since the 'Dunblane ban' has been from replica firearms and air guns
(air guns are the 'other' catagory in the table above).

Like I said, whilst obviously we're no nirvana and we do have our problems, the UK crime and particularly gun crime situation can easily stand comparison with that of the USA every day of the week and it will always come out looking the better.

I have discussed this often before with US friends (which is how come I was able to know where to go to lay my hands on the necessary stats so easily......your lucky day, eh? :D ).
In large part it seems to me that this basically boils down to a 'belief' that it is somehow 'morally better' to have the means to that kind of personal protection (ie guns) if ever attacked by an assailant
(a view I can easily understand and have some sympathy for)
but
the fact still remains that in terms of the actual net effects and outcomes it does not lead to less crime and greater safety at all.

Comment by: error5 (Jun 16, 2007 12:51)

Good discussion but realize that none of your arguments, graphs, and statistics will change anyone's mind one way or the other.

The political lobby on either side is just to powerful and too well-funded to make a difference. The debate will continue especially here in the US and it looks like the end result will always be a stalemate.

I know because I have a brother who works for a law firm that represents one side and a cousin who works for a law firm representing the other side. You can imagine how lively our Thanksgiving discussions can be.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 20:47)

Originally posted by error5:

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You can imagine how lively our Thanksgiving discussions can be.

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- I'll bet.

My only problem here is how our tabloids (and other various groups) deliberately keep upping the fear of crime with exaggerated and amplified tales of supposedly rising crime which are not in line with the reality.

Obviously I realise bad news sells to a certain section.
But IMO this is calculated to extend and maintain the separation & atomisation of our society and keep people apart & afraid of each other.

Comment by: dblbogey7 (Jun 16, 2007 21:40)

Originally posted by error5:

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The political lobby on either side is just to powerful and too well-funded to make a difference. The debate will continue especially here in the US and it looks like the end result will always be a stalemate.

I know because I have a brother who works for a law firm that represents one side and a cousin who works for a law firm representing the other side. You can imagine how lively our Thanksgiving discussions can be.

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What a coincidence error5. My brother-in-law (the one who bought my Sony Pearl PJ) also works for a DC law firm that represents some gun lobby and NRA interests.

Of course you're right about both sides having enormous political clout and the debate will continue ad infinitum. Nothing we say here today will change that and any gun control legislation will likely contain compromises that will at least be acceptable to both sides.

Comment by: sclgwhite (Jun 16, 2007 21:46)

Wow!!! I surely did not intend to get hughjars' national pride stirred up! My comments were couched entirely within the data at hand, which was the Bishop of Manchester stating that there is "a gun crime problem", and that he did not want Sony to "encourge people to have gun battles in the building." Apparently he is an alarmist, and I am glad to get that misconception corrected.

I can only speak semi-knowledgeably with regard to the U.S.A, and over here in this blood-thirsty country the beleagured police are thankful to have us citizens who are licensed to carry concealed handguns help them curtail the criminal element. Aside from the cases where we actually confront armed criminals, our deterrent force comes from instilling fear of the unknown - am I, as a possible target, defenseless, or am I carrying a concealed handgun?

Hughjars, if you ever boldly visit our primitive country, and one of our gun-toting criminals accosts you, I hope I or one of my concealed-handgun carrying brothers or sisters is there to bail you out. Seriously.

Comment by: hughjars (Jun 16, 2007 22:01)

Originally posted by sclgwhite:

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Wow!!! I surely did not intend to get hughjars' national pride stirred up!

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- You didn't.
It was the comments about our supposed rising crime that needed correcting, that's all.

It was a decent to & fro and as has been said I didn't really expect to alter anyone's view anymore that the reverse was expected of me.

Anyone neutral or wanting some sources for facts on the issue looking in might just be a little more informed tho so it's worthwhile I guess.

Originally posted by sclgwhite:

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Hughjars, if you ever boldly visit our primitive country, and one of our gun-toting criminals accosts you, I hope I or one of my concealed-handgun carrying brothers or sisters is there to bail you out. Seriously.

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- Don't be so defensive about your country, I have several US relatives actually and I consider the place far from primative.

I do think the law is wrong & that you're in a mess that will be a long time sorting out tho.
But hey, just my 2 pennies/cents.

I can say that the chances of you encountering an armed criminal if you should be visiting this country are almost nil.
You really don't have to spend any time seriously worrying about it anymore than the rest of us here.
;)

Comment by: Ofnir1 (Jun 17, 2007 00:18)

Originally posted by hughjars:

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I do think the law is wrong & that you're in a mess that will be a long time sorting out tho.
But hey, just my 2 pennies/cents.

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I agree with you, and it only seems like it will be getting worse. The Law/System is only there to benefit everyone but us.

|PlayStation 2 [version 7], DMS4 Pro, ToxicBIOS 1.4w/ ToxicOS 0.4, 80GB HDD|
NEC DualLayer DVD+RW/-RW ND-3550A, Taiyo Yuden & Ritek DVD-R

Comment by: Attin (Jun 17, 2007 20:20)

This is bullshit...

Comment by: Emtee (Jun 18, 2007 23:29)

I really don't care either way, but! Every time you arrive at a church they are so eager to ask for donations for there service... Well I say who cares let Sony be, maybe they should hand out the collection plate to Sony.... If they want some kind of apology, this will help how? and who?

Comment by: scott2k7 (Jun 19, 2007 11:38)

it will help god

Comment by: scott2k7 (Jun 19, 2007 11:39)

it will help god

Comment by: Unfocused (Jul 31, 2007 03:07)

Are buildings in the Public Domain as far as representation?