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Comment by: WraithTDK (Jul 01, 2011 19:52)

This isn't the first time this has happened. Ten years ago, software was out-pacing hardware very quickly. There was a solution back then: develop for the PC. They made things for high-end computers that consoles of the day couldn't dream of running.

The platform is still there. The solution will still work. We need a PC gaming revival. Develop for Steam, or get Microsoft to tweak Games For Windows Live to make it more attractive.

Comment by: DXR88 (Jul 01, 2011 20:36)

Originally posted by WraithTDK:

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This isn't the first time this has happened. Ten years ago, software was out-pacing hardware very quickly. There was a solution back then: develop for the PC. They made things for high-end computers that consoles of the day couldn't dream of running.

The platform is still there. The solution will still work. We need a PC gaming revival. Develop for Steam, or get Microsoft to tweak Games For Windows Live to make it more attractive.

---

or develop an OS for PC that's strictly for Gaming. they could do it Like MCE, or a standalone OS.

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Comment by: Interestx (Jul 01, 2011 21:16)

Killerbug

Yes I agree it's a type of Blu-ray and obviously they are moving to a potential of around 25gbs a disc but it's absolutely not a run of the mill Blu-ray drive, I think we agree on that.

What I have to disagree about is your idea that Xbox gamer with games on 2 or more DVDs "constantly have to swap disks".

That's just a very silly exaggeration.

Also I am not saying cut scenes have no place....but be honest, people buying PS3s with their possible 50gb Blu-ray discs did not suddenly find themselves offered a world of games 7 - 8 times bigger than those offered on DVD.

Comment by: WraithTDK (Jul 01, 2011 22:34)

Originally posted by DXR88:

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Originally posted by WraithTDK:

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This isn't the first time this has happened. Ten years ago, software was out-pacing hardware very quickly. There was a solution back then: develop for the PC. They made things for high-end computers that consoles of the day couldn't dream of running.

The platform is still there. The solution will still work. We need a PC gaming revival. Develop for Steam, or get Microsoft to tweak Games For Windows Live to make it more attractive.

---

or develop an OS for PC that's strictly for Gaming. they could do it Like MCE, or a standalone OS.

---

Hmmmm, an intriguing concept, and it sounded great when I first read that, but then I thought about it for a moment, and the flaws became quickly apparent. How many people would buy and install an OS whose primary purpose was to turn their high-end computer into a thousand plus-dollar game console? Sure, you could duel-boot, but with the typical user, that's just asking for trouble. It'd never find a big enough market to encourage developers to design games for it.

No, I think Windows is still a great platform for games. It's popular enough to encourage devs, and potentially powerful enough to run anything a game could throw at it. The biggest hurdle right now is how satisfy the average developer's hatred for piracy without having to resort to buggy, game-breaking DRM that is ALWAYS more trouble than it's worth. STEAM is a big step in the right direction; and I think that a similar system of tying games to Live accounts would be great. Adding achievements to PC-exclusive tittles that would be visible on XBL would be a big incentive, I think.

Comment by: brockie (Jul 02, 2011 03:41)

@Interestx I'm talking this year not what they have released from day one that is a fan boy comment. really your trying to make out that bluray is not going make a difference in gaming that is naive. by the way I have a 360 on my 3rd one in 2 years I just like my PS3 as well a bit more.like Killerbug said the drive in the Wiiu is a bluray drive Nintendo are being cheap so they do not have to pay for licensing. plus multiplat games are beginning to look better on PS3 devs no what there doing now it is the lead platform as well these days.

Comment by: Mr_Bill06 (Jul 02, 2011 11:18)

Just because you have a game that would fill a dual layer Blu-ray disc is not there just to make a long game. The reason for that space is so they could add more game yes but it's also like how movies look better on Blu-ray, they are less compressed. That extra space is used to make games look better. Look back they use to use tape, cartridges then it went to CD then DVD. Take a look at L.A. Noire it looks a bit better on the PS3 it displays the finer detail and the reason it may not be like that on the Xbox is because they had to compress the game or remove it to get game size down. Fact is next gen consoles will use something other then DVD, Sony owns Blu-ray so PS4 will probably have that, the new Wii will have a dulled down Blu-ray it's just time to change to the new format.

Comment by: keith1993 (Jul 02, 2011 15:54)

The thing console manufactures need to realise is that the clocks counting down, ISPs are getting faster and services like Netflix are growing in popularity. When services like OnLive grow we won't need to buy their expensive boxes, wait for discs to come or downloads to finish. We'll be playing games in the cloud and they'll be bust...

Comment by: brockie (Jul 02, 2011 19:07)

@keith1993 cloud down games gone. how will MS Sony go bust they have the customers they all ready let you download full games to your harddrive were you can play without the net better option imo. with hacker these days no net connection is safe.@Mr_Bill06 good points.

Comment by: Interestx (Jul 02, 2011 22:21)

brockie & Mr_Bill

For the handful of games that look better on PS3 compared to Xbox there are more than a few where it works the other way.

LA Noire is not proof of anything except that the 'lead console' is usually the one which ends up looking & running a little better.
Same as all those games which had the Xbox 360 as the lead console and looked and ran a little better doesn't prove the PS3 has problems.
It's just what happens when 1 is developed off of the other.
Whatever way around it is is usually the one that gets the slight benefit.

This gen I think the idea that Blu-ray has meant that much to gaming is simply not borne out by the mass of evidence we see.

You can point to a few PS3 exclusives that look slightly better, but it's still only slightly and Xbox does have a host of 3rd party games that look that much better on it (which is to say a little better).
There's nothing 'fanboy' about saying that, it's just the truth.

The problem Blu-ray has is that for too many people the difference is .....um, so what?
For films and games.

I know, I have a nice 50" 1080p THX plasma and the audio kit (including the right spec speaker package) to be able to get & hear lossless audio properly (all professionally calibrated too) and with few exceptions most say 'yeah it's nice but....' and they don't really care.
Plus they think I'm insane to have spent what I have on my stuff.

keith1993 is closer to the truth.
Downloading is going to be the thing.
Discs are old and on the way out.
I can easily imagine getting the bare bones of a game on DVD (which is still enormously easier & cheaper to produce compared to Blu-ray) and the rest comes to your hard drive via DLC.

I think those who seriously see Blu-ray as the future of anything are in for disappointment.
It's a development tech - by which I mean developed from DVD/disc tech - and it's not that usual for development tech CE stuff to get a long run.
Fine if you accept that (I do) disappointing if you don't/can't, put it this way, I cannot see it repeating DVD's spectacular success.
In fact I expect DVD to see Blu-ray die rather than the other way around.
Into the 6th year now and growth has not matched DVDs.

Comment by: Mr_Bill06 (Jul 02, 2011 23:29)

I don't know how you can say Blu-ray is still expensive? I have bought many movies even ones that use dual layer discs for $10-$15. Any new medium at first is expensive again look back when CD and DVD came out. Both CD and DVD computer burners where several hundred dollars. Blu-ray will catch on a lot more when price goes even further down to where DVD is at, again it will take a while just like DVD did. DLC is nice but where I live we are going backwards, we no longer have many unlimited net plans and plans are small, I am still lucky to have an old unlimited plan. I will agree for the most part Blu-ray in the PS3 has not been really beneficial to games because most games are ported from the Xbox to the PS3. Like I said in my post a few posts up the reason why Blu-ray will help games out, this is not really debatable that game system manufacturers will not stick with DVD and it's limit of about 8gb. There was a news article on here that had to do with Microsoft updating the 360 to squeeze more space out of a DVD, that right there says something. I am also not saying that Blu-ray is the be all end all of discs but right now it's the disc that holds the most and is the primary source to get HD movies on. Will Blu-ray be around in the future? I don't know, but as we increase the resolution and less compress files we need a bigger disc or space to hold them and that will only lead to new mediums being made.

Comment by: Interestx (Jul 03, 2011 01:56)

Mr_Bill

To even be able to get the lossless audio you need an expensive speaker package.
You're also better off not buying a bargain basement receiver cos no matter what the little lights tell you you probably aren't really getting it either.

Plus you need a decent HD TV to make the most of the image.
Your bargain 32" HD TV is not your friend and nor is a cheapo 40".

Blu-ray has already had 5yrs and is now into it's 6th year.
How many more are you expecting it to get (or to take)?
Even DVD 'only' got a full 10yr run before the next things came along (and as far as films go that now ranges from DVRs to various IPTV systems - even the Blu-ray players themselves now often come with all sorts of on-line means of viewing films).

I'd also say you're day-dreaming if you think the mass-market is moving away from 720p/1080i for broadcast and 1080p for films.
HD isn't even ubiquitous yet (and in most territories is very very far from it).

As for PCs Blu-ray has missed the bus there.
Hard drives are so huge, reliable & cheap now - along with simple user-friendly media players to hook them up to anything - why would anyone worry about using blank Blu-ray media which is so slow & expensive?
Try telling me you can get cheap BD50's....no seriously, I like a ton of people would love to know.
You see I buy all this crap but I am under no illusions about its transitory nature. Those who think it is durable and here to stay are kidding themselves.

Sony has Blu-ray.
That's it.
Nintendo use their own version of it which is nothing like the same
Microsoft?
I'd bet the house they too go their own way.
2013 we'll all see.

Comment by: Mr_Bill06 (Jul 03, 2011 02:23)

Yes the writable BD-50's are not that cheap, the cheapest I ever paid was $50-$60 for a 10 pack. To you and I the price of blank media is just not worth buying, I can buy a 1TB hard drive for $40-$50 when on sale to the 500gb spread on 10 BD's. Going back to my point Sony, MS and Nintendo would love this it would cut down piracy because you would need to have a Blu-ray burner and Blu-ray discs. I do think price will come down once there is a high demand the more they make the cheaper it gets, also as time goes on they could improve the process involved in making them to cut costs down. Then again the cost is only high on blank discs, games will still cost $50-$60 no matter what media it's on. All I am saying is that DVD should no longer be the media of choice when it comes to gaming for consoles. There is not much space on the disc and I could care less what media Sony, Nintendo or MS use as long as it's not DVD. I think that's what most people are saying and the biggest disc that is on the market that I know of right now is Blu-ray. I can see if MS does not want to pay Sony or support the Blu-ray media they could use HD-DVD it's just a tad smaller then the BD discs. I know before HD-DVD died they where coming up with a 100gb HD-DVD disc. Blu-ray is in works with a 1TB disc yes you heard it right 1TB, how far are they with that I don't know but it would require a different laser then the one's being used now.

Edit: Since last hearing a long while ago I just did a search and TDK are making a prototype dual sided 1TB disc (500gb each side) and it can use a normal Blu-ray laser.

Comment by: brockie (Jul 03, 2011 02:55)

@Interestx I'm talking exclusive games THIS year not in total PlayStation has way more than 20 exclusives, they have over 20 coming this year Xbox has GOW3 that is the point I'm making. you probably said you liked TDK tapes instead of CD & VHS over DVD the fact is DVD will be dead & bluray will take over the technology is still being worked out like Mr_Bill06 said 1TB discs there will be 100gb ones ready soon that work with the PS3 as well you seem to want to live in the past.

Comment by: jutsu (Jul 03, 2011 04:27)

LA Noire on Xbox is using very low bitrate MP3... maybe to save space? --> http://game.bramantya.org/investigating-how-team-bondi-managed-to-fit-la-noire-in-3-dvd-part-1-audio/
btw anyone willing to see the PS3 file?

Comment by: KillerBug (Jul 03, 2011 06:33)

BluRay is the future...at least the immediate future. Downloading is great, but has some serious drawbacks. DLC is probably not the future...I honestly think we will go from optical disk to cloud, and skip the era of downloading entire AAA games, at least on the consoles.

-Downloading is slow. These big games leave most of the 50GB on the disk and just play it back as needed, even the slowest BluRay drives read at 72mbps...even doing this, some games take an hour to install. The fact is, if you have an internet connection that is fast enough to download 50GB games, then you have an internet connection that is fast enough for cloud gaming.

-Hard drives are small...the 360 can't even upgrade to 500GB, and most people still have their stock 230GB-320GB hard drives. Not much room for 50GB games there.

The drive in the Wii2 is a bluray drive from what I have seen...they don't want to pay for licensing, so there is no app to play blurays, but the drive seems to be physically identical...it only makes sense as the technology is already in the public domain (that is why companies like LG can make a bluray reader drive so cheap).

Oh, there is one other very serious issue with downloading games that I am sure is a huge concern for developers...if someone has to spend hours or even days downloading a game, why pay for it? Why not just download from Usenet or a torrent or something?

Comment by: brockie (Jul 03, 2011 06:45)

the next XBOX & PS4 will still have drives most gamers still want physical media. maybe in 10 years the cloud will go mainstream in gaming not so sure myself I like to have something in my hand. people are already downloading AAA games I have seen Infamous 2 digital on my friends list.

Comment by: Interestx (Jul 03, 2011 14:04)

Guys, I still think you are concentrating on the specs & potential but ignoring the practical.

Let's be clear about the bigger Blu-ray disc sizes.
They aren't going to be anything close to mass-market.
Not outside of Japan.

As it is a dual layer blank BD50 costs are enormous and production is not that high, which helps keep the price high - and this took a long time to get to and was hard to do.....how much harder and more expensive even more layers?

Then there's the claim they work with existing lasers.
I call BS on that, I'll believe it when I see it.
Then there's the final 2 points on this.
1) BDXL. The bigger Blu-ray.
It is stunningly expensive and selling in tiny numbers in Japan only - and it does require a new player.
It's not like any big western studios is releasing films on it either and I have not heard of anyone big planning to.
2) The existing market.
A new Blu-ray is just what the market does not need right now.

50gbs max for Blu-ray (outside of Japan) is it.
Nintendo think 25gbs will do fine.
Microsoft?
I think they might pick up the 51gb triple layer HD DVD tech that was ready just before HD DVD was canned.

But be serious, it's a stop-gap.
A time-filler until our internet infrastructure is ready in enough places so that games (and films) come via digital distribution.
The UK is not exactly a front runner for net speeds but we are getting 'up to 40mb' rolling out across the network right now.
It's coming.

I do expect the next consoles to have a disc player and a much larger (1tb?) hard drive (and USB 3.0 for flash & external HDDs) but it is the last one.....and everyone knows it.
That's not what I call 'the future'.
It's the last knockings of the present.

....and brockie

I'm not "living in the past" at all.
I have all this stuff.
I'm just not kidding myself that I have bought into the future.

Comment by: Mr_Bill06 (Jul 03, 2011 14:06)

The only other problem I can see for full downloadable games is you can not sell it when you no longer play or want the game. I hope they can change that in the future so that you can sell and transfer you license to someone else. This is the big reason a lot of people want to own physical media they don't want to be tied to one console. They want to be able to play there game on any system and be able to sell there game if they so do wish.

Comment by: Interestx (Jul 03, 2011 14:17)

Mr_Bill06

There's always a way but it depends on how nice the corps want to be to everyone.

TBH what I expect to see is something like how TV is going.
You pay a monthly sub and a vast catalogue is open to you.
It's just there all the time.
The cloud I guess.
So keeping a physical copy is pointless.

How much we have to pay for this will be interesting but however it begins ultimately I see it as just being part of the normal back-drop.
You turn on your TV, go to menu and select whatever it is you want to watch or play - or continue watching or whatever you were playing before.

Comment by: DXR88 (Jul 03, 2011 18:24)

they could charge you whatever they wished if cloud was the only form of getting media. physical media, D2D and Related Services keep a balance.

its Human Nature to want something physical or at least knowing it could be made so.

Cloud is like ordering a cheeseburger and getting a plate with a translucent cheeseburger...you can see it and smell it but you cant touch it or eat it.

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Comment by: Interestx (Jul 03, 2011 22:28)

DXR88

They could....right up until you cancelled or swapped to another provider/portal service.

I think one of the things here is too many people are thinking about this as if it's going to be restricted in many ways.
It might start off like that but to truly grow & become what it will that just won't happen.
Otherwise it doesn't take off.

But the thing is it offers way to many benefits to too many businesses and people for it not to be allowed to grow.

The cloud is much more like a delivering catering service able to offer you up exactly what you want whenever you want it.

It is going to happen and people clutching their old 'physical goods' certainties will continue to do so for a while - until even they realise how silly & pointless it is.

Comment by: lxhotboy (Jul 05, 2011 00:27)

Let's be real here. I hope bluray is in the next gen consoles. All of them but bluray disc biggest impact for PS3 has not been for gaming. If not for bluray he PS3 wouldn't have sold as many consoles period. That's been its biggest advantage.

As for PS having all these exclusive his year, that's just more chances to have your credit card and other information stolen on an inferior gaming network. Let's keep it real. How many people got rid of their PS3 just to be able to play online months ago. So please stop fanboying here.

Comment by: TrinUK (Jul 05, 2011 09:09)

And when Sony, Microsoft and who ever else bring out their next Gen consoles????? More long scenes of pointless chatter, fancy expensive pointless CG openings Hollywood style. Very few games with excellent graphics but poor, shoddy visuals, poor game play AND???????? Hundreds of well funded war fighter sims.

Gaming has become so predictable with one target audience in mind.

Comment by: Interestx (Jul 05, 2011 15:09)

TrinUK

I agree.....but then trying to break out of the dour self-labelled 'serious gamer' niche is what Wii/Kinect/Move is all about.

There's room for all in my view.

I just look back to the variety of games we used to have with Genesis/Megadrive, SNES & Playstation 1 and can't help thinking where did it all go so wrong?

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