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Comment by: ivymike (May 24, 2011 00:53)

MESSAGE TO SONY: Payback is a language edited for content that violates forum rules.

Now if only they'll go bankrupt.....

Comment by: Sillyboy18 (May 24, 2011 04:12)

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hope they catch the scum who did it

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Well that be the day, I mean really you think anyone can catch GOD. Earth quakes can only be caused by GOD. I don't think he like to be called scum.

Comment by: Dildor (May 24, 2011 07:24)

I own a PS3 and let Sony discontinue it, there's a large hacking community militia that will support this system long after Sony wants us to shell out another three to seven hundred bucks for another one in the name of anti-piracy. Game companies and console companies want to protect their investments, but what about the consumer who wants to protect theirs as well? It seems to me that these big game companies take great joy if consumer profiting is at a loss, but they will press against our constitutional rights if any one of us goes against their profits- in the US, why would its government care about a Japanese company whose country killed thousands of American soldiers in WWII, but for some puzzling reasons, the US courts will defend Sony's intellectual freedoms in a foreign land that is not even theirs! Take Sony's failure aka their network security breach versus Geohotz's tutorial on how to unlock the PS3's capabilities based on how Sony had designed its system which so happens to be their negligence not ours- Sony has brought through their security breach, (which is reverse piracy in my opinion which Sony failed to prevent in spite of knowing that this would happen as they were warned) , fear, uncertainty, and inconvenience to all of Sony's customers for which Sony wants to compensate them (aka welcome back stupid) by giving its users 2 older games (together worth 40 to 60 bucks), free theft prevention for a year (worth $100 to $150 bucks a year-check out lifelock.com) a month of their music service(only for current subscribers- $10 bucks for a month?) and a month of their Playstation plus services for all users (unfair to plus subscribers who don't have Sony's music service-$6 bucks for a month) total cost- around $230 bucks (more or less)per user plus a few useless downloads for which Sony will own and discontinue upon their whim- but hacking away at your PS3-priceless! However, Sony still comes out on top because they have already made their money and they will continue to make more to swallow up any loses- that's if their are any! On the other hand for GeoHotZ, if Sony didn't worry so much about its market share and reputation...Mr. NEOGEO would have to pay Sony a couple hundred thousand dollars and whatever a lawyer would cost him-plus many of his civil rights would be terminated- but for some reason Sony gets off so cheaply! And let us not forget, in addition, Sony wanted to acquire the privacy rights via IP addresses from all those who viewed Hotz's online tutorial for curiosity or for whatever purpose- and Sony claims to be the bastion of privacy rights?

And as far as unintended use for the PS3 goes, Don't some organizations use the PS3 for computing purposes because of the machine's processing power? They even use some of the PSN user's processor bandwidth for free if the user so happens to volunteer, yet nothing is given to the user for free in return for the service, but I suppose Sony is charging these organizations for the privilege anyway! The PS3 was intended to be a game system...but Sony doesn't impede on these organization's rights for using it otherwise!

If one were able to modify their car to increase its personal value- maybe even making it so it runs on whatever fuel one desires thus saving a ton of money, how would it be if the automobile company who had made the car dictated to what could and could not be done to the vehicle because they don't want the consumer to profit in any way because any modification would prolong the life of the car thus discouraging the owner from buying a newer car in the future... if that's not enough, they claim that they still own the car even after the consumer had outright bought it because the car company made the buyer sign a document that is so confusing that even a lawyer would have a hard time swallowing it. Furthermore, the fuel companies also play the game as well and are in bed with the car manufacture for they depend on consumer fuel consumption profits for the lifetime of the car for which any such modification of,would be a hindrance! Think about how many people would be taking public transportation instead if the auto industry was run like the gaming industry!!

I recently have bought an open source handheld instead of a 3DS and the upcoming NGP. I own a WII (what a disappointment-you won't ever screw me again Big N) along with my PS3-these might be my last systems ever unless a dedicated open source gaming console is ever created for the general public! These big gaming companies worry too much about their intellectual freedoms (aka Fascist Freedoms) versus consumer rights...let's practice our intellectual freedoms...let's cut into their profits and make it 1982 and '83 all over again! If these BIG GAME and CONSOLE companies don't like how their consumers behave, then they should get out of the business and let the generic gaming companies in Hong Kong and South Korea take over! An could this "whole bring down the PSN network thing" be a stunt done by Sony to make Anonymous look like a bunch of thugs instead of the hacktivist that they claim to be...I wonder! Yeah, I give a sh-T for Japan with their nuke, tsunami, and earthquake problems, but the US Postal Service won't let me send it in the mail!

Comment by: lxfactor (May 24, 2011 13:02)

lmao do u think anyone is going to read that ^^^

Comment by: dali (May 24, 2011 13:45)

Broken "enter" key?

Comment by: PBob (May 24, 2011 13:48)

I did... well stated ^^^

Comment by: brockie (May 24, 2011 14:15)

message to hackers do some good with what you can do instead of trying to ruin a good gaming system for the people who just want to play games. people on here love the guys who stole the data weird do you shake the thieves hand when he robs your house as well lol.

Comment by: SomeBozo (May 24, 2011 16:55)

For me it's s0ny's fault for letting this happen. Multiple sources clearly state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers, knew about it and did nothing. I'm by not means making allowances for the criminals that hacked and damaged s0ny, but still they have a responsibility to operate in a safe, secure environment. On the other side there are things companies simply need to do for normal business operation now a days. Just as much as i lock the door to my house and other valuables, so does s0ny have to protect it's user's information.

Rather annoys me to see s0ny play the tsunami card for sympathy, these two issues are completely separate, and the losses from be incompetent is still their own fault.

Comment by: hearme0 (May 24, 2011 17:22)

Originally posted by harhumph:

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Karma, bitch, karma... I'll shed a tear for Sony when I die, if dead people can produce tears that is...

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Well said and true to the bone!

Comment by: Dildor (May 24, 2011 17:22)

Originally posted by lxfactor:

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lmao do u think anyone is going to read that ^^^

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IMO I doubt you can even read.

Comment by: Oner (May 24, 2011 18:24)

Originally posted by Dildor:

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Originally posted by lxfactor:

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lmao do u think anyone is going to read that ^^^

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IMO I doubt you can even read.

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Please refrain from personal insults as that is a violation of forum rules.

Please also try to post your comments in a more uniform standard and readable structured layout, as walls of text are more difficult to read than properly separated sentences & paragraphs.

Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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For me it's s0ny's fault for letting this happen. Multiple sources clearly state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers, knew about it and did nothing.

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It is a misnomer that these "Multiple sources state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers". For more info and facts about it you can read here & here (posts #491 through about #512) about it. Along with the users information was protected with a cryptographic hash function (Source here)

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Comment by: hearme0 (May 24, 2011 18:28)

Man o man...........have these people not learned from 'lissenup'?

Comment by: Dildor (May 24, 2011 19:48)

"Please refrain from personal insults as that is a violation of forum rules.

Please also try to post your comments in a more uniform standard and readable structured layout, as walls of text are more difficult to read than properly separated sentences & paragraphs."

Protecting a senior member I see who personally attacked my post in a sarcastic manner instead of giving constructive advice, or simply saying nothing at all.

Comment by: Smacks (May 24, 2011 22:44)

Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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For me it's s0ny's fault for letting this happen. Multiple sources clearly state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers, knew about it and did nothing.

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It is a misnomer that these "Multiple sources state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers". For more info and facts about it you can read here & here (posts #491 through about #512) about it. Along with the users information was protected with a cryptographic hash function (Source here)

@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

Comment by: SomeBozo (May 24, 2011 23:50)

Originally posted by Smacks:

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Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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For me it's s0ny's fault for letting this happen. Multiple sources clearly state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers, knew about it and did nothing.

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It is a misnomer that these "Multiple sources state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers". For more info and facts about it you can read here & here (posts #491 through about #512) about it. Along with the users information was protected with a cryptographic hash function (Source here)

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

Actually on another thread I did supply links quoting both ABC news and CNET, both I would think are credible as well as security expert brought in to do post mortums and evaluate the current state of s0ny's network. I don't have time to go back and find them, plus the story from last week saying s0ny still has not taken some of the step suggested it should.

Comment by: Oner (May 24, 2011 23:57)

Originally posted by Dildor:

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Protecting a senior member I see who personally attacked my post in a sarcastic manner instead of giving constructive advice, or simply saying nothing at all.

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I think you need to go over our rules again. Especially these parts ~

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No foul language, insults, personal attacks or otherwise rude messages.

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Quote:

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Administrative actions

Messages that break any of the rules above can be removed or edited by the moderators and administrators of these forums. Even if something isn't specifically mentioned in the rules, it doesn't mean that it would be permitted. It is up to the moderators and administrators to determine what is appropriate and what is not.

Users who willfully violate the forum rules can be banned by the moderators and administrators.

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He did not "personally attack" your post. While he may have been a tiny bit sarcastic that is a very minimal thing, as the point of his comment is what is ACTUALLY more important.

If you want people to read what you have to say ~ make it clear for them to do so as most people (myself included) will not even bother through the strain & difficulty of what looks to be a run on sentence (even if punctuated properly) because it was a block/wall of text.

Originally posted by Smacks:

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

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TY. Just passing on info as I come across it so as to keep proper & valid information out there. Now that is not to say ALL of Sony's networks are/were up to date, but for the PSN it seems it was, because they are still having intrusion issues with 2 recent events that happened yesterday and today I believe.

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Comment by: SomeBozo (May 25, 2011 00:18)

Originally posted by Smacks:

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

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TY. Just passing on info as I come across it so as to keep proper & valid information out there. Now that is not to say ALL of Sony's networks are/were up to date, but for the PSN it seems it was, because they are still having intrusion issues with 2 recent events that happened yesterday and today I believe.

And this lines up with the information i've been reading all the while that s0ny has been having security issues. For you to mention s0ny has been hacked on two separate in the last few days was hacked again :(

Just seems hard for people (not saying you Oner specifically) just saying that other mentioning the quotes or references that s0ny is still not secure problem and people are spreading rooms fallaciously, they might need to double check their facts.

Comment by: Oner (May 25, 2011 00:43)

Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by Smacks:

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

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TY. Just passing on info as I come across it so as to keep proper & valid information out there. Now that is not to say ALL of Sony's networks are/were up to date, but for the PSN it seems it was, because they are still having intrusion issues with 2 recent events that happened yesterday and today I believe.

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And this lines up with the information i've been reading all the while that s0ny has been having security issues. For you to mention s0ny has been hacked on two separate in the last few days was hacked again :(

Just seems hard for people (not saying you Oner specifically) just saying that other mentioning the quotes or references that s0ny is still not secure problem and people are spreading rooms fallaciously, they might need to double check their facts.

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There is a lot of misinformation out there. Hell it even got all the way up to the US Congress! Between the original "insecure servers" that stared about 4 or 5 months ago which was confused with the actual recent PSN outage (that I linked to above) to the Greece site attack yesterday and 1 or 2 other issues (one being confused as a hack when it was just a phishing scam) it gets quite confusing.

Even I tend to forget how big Sony is and that it isn't just about PS, but multitudes of media and different network offerings that are spread out World Wide in different countries, nations and languages...that's a hell of a lot of hardware/software/data out there to manage.

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Comment by: SomeBozo (May 25, 2011 01:29)

Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by Smacks:

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

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TY. Just passing on info as I come across it so as to keep proper & valid information out there. Now that is not to say ALL of Sony's networks are/were up to date, but for the PSN it seems it was, because they are still having intrusion issues with 2 recent events that happened yesterday and today I believe.

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And this lines up with the information i've been reading all the while that s0ny has been having security issues. For you to mention s0ny has been hacked on two separate in the last few days was hacked again :(

Just seems hard for people (not saying you Oner specifically) just saying that other mentioning the quotes or references that s0ny is still not secure problem and people are spreading rooms fallaciously, they might need to double check their facts.

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There is a lot of misinformation out there. Hell it even got all the way up to the US Congress! Between the original "insecure servers" that stared about 4 or 5 months ago which was confused with the actual recent PSN outage (that I linked to above) to the Greece site attack yesterday and 1 or 2 other issues (one being confused as a hack when it was just a phishing scam) it gets quite confusing.

Even I tend to forget how big Sony is and that it isn't just about PS, but multitudes of media and different network offerings that are spread out World Wide in different countries, nations and languages...that's a hell of a lot of hardware/software/data out there to manage.

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I agree that s0ny might be huge, no doubt, but the problem with any site in s0ny's domain for not conforming or being tightly secured, well as they say a chain is as strong as it's weakest link. Chances are once a hacker gets on any server they will be able to jump from one unsecured machine/account, or copy file over to inject a machine upon reboot, or other nifty little hacks to gain access and own a machine, worse thing being many viruses are very stealthy, programs to detect them often fail to discover them as the viruses now know how to hide or patch up the detection programs in letting users think there machines are clean.

Comment by: Dildor (May 25, 2011 03:05)

Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by Dildor:

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Protecting a senior member I see who personally attacked my post in a sarcastic manner instead of giving constructive advice, or simply saying nothing at all.

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I think you need to go over our rules again. Especially these parts ~

Quote:

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No foul language, insults, personal attacks or otherwise rude messages.

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Quote:

---

Administrative actions

Messages that break any of the rules above can be removed or edited by the moderators and administrators of these forums. Even if something isn't specifically mentioned in the rules, it doesn't mean that it would be permitted. It is up to the moderators and administrators to determine what is appropriate and what is not.

Users who willfully violate the forum rules can be banned by the moderators and administrators.

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He did not "personally attack" your post. While he may have been a tiny bit sarcastic that is a very minimal thing, as the point of his comment is what is ACTUALLY more important.

If you want people to read what you have to say ~ make it clear for them to do so as most people (myself included) will not even bother through the strain & difficulty of what looks to be a run on sentence (even if punctuated properly) because it was a block/wall of text.

Originally posted by Smacks:

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@Oner
Solid links to some factual information. Glad to see the truth rising above the speculation.

---

TY. Just passing on info as I come across it so as to keep proper & valid information out there. Now that is not to say ALL of Sony's networks are/were up to date, but for the PSN it seems it was, because they are still having intrusion issues with 2 recent events that happened yesterday and today I believe.

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Get out the tampons, are you still thinking about this? It's been several hours since I last posted! What you consider a "tad bit of sarcasm" I consider trolling which is rude behavior. Of course you prefer him to me in your special club, that's why the rules are different. You should actually read what I originally posted and your friend should too, it is quite the truth about the video game industry and is really relevant to the article posted. I made paragraphs like you had recommenced. Thanks! So, I am not checking back her for your response...have a good one!

Comment by: KillerBug (May 25, 2011 03:42)

Originally posted by Oner:

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It is a misnomer that these "Multiple sources state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers". For more info and facts about it you can read here & here (posts #491 through about #512) about it. Along with the users information was protected with a cryptographic hash function (Source here)

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Just a little issue with that...

Quote:

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As it turns out, it is fairly simple to use Google's webcache to show what version of Apache the PSN servers were using back in March. According to a page request archived by Google on March 23, 2011, at that time Sony was running version 2.2.17 of the software. You can see from Apache's website that 2.2.17 is the latest stable version of the webserver available even today. This is a direct repudiation of the claims being made that Sony's webservers were out of date by as much as five years.

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That is from the first article, which didn't mention the firewall at all...and Apache isn't what got hacked either.

The second link never even touched on the firewall issue.

Sony's own documents from their press conference show that they were not using firewalls on all access points...they show that it was a 2-prong attack; they attacked the application server directly, without going through a firewall, then injected code that allowed them to go strait to the database server...Sony admitted this themselves, so why do people keep trying to prove that their security was up to the task?



As for hashing the user information, they did not encrypt it while it was being transmitted, and hackers were in the servers for days, and they setup the PS3 to transmit your CC & address every time you log on, so they could have easily gotten a huge amount if information just from that. Sony was warned publicly and repeatedly, but sony was too busy suing Graf for working with Linux to bother with fixing massive security holes. Once it is in the system, I can't really say; I was not involved in the attack...but I highly doubt a company with backdoors on their app server would bother with 256 bit AES.

Comment by: hearme0 (May 25, 2011 17:56)

These people will learn............How many times did "Lissenup" get banned for unleashing on others??

Comment by: Oner (May 25, 2011 20:47)

Originally posted by Dildor:

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Get out the tampons, are you still thinking about this? It's been several hours since I last posted! What you consider a "tad bit of sarcasm" I consider trolling which is rude behavior. Of course you prefer him to me in your special club, that's why the rules are different. You should actually read what I originally posted and your friend should too, it is quite the truth about the video game industry and is really relevant to the article posted. I made paragraphs like you had recommenced. Thanks! So, I am not checking back her for your response...have a good one!

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It seems pretty obvious you don't like to listen to advice (in addition to already having been warned) so I will just say this. What "you consider" about the rules is inconsequential to the situation as it is not your responsibility here. There is no "special club" only the one you THINK there is. Follow the rules (which you really need to take heed of) and there will be no issue. Can't be any more simpler and easier to understand than that.

Originally posted by hearme0:

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These people will learn............How many times did "Lissenup" get banned for unleashing on others??

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Exactly. QFT.

Originally posted by KillerBug:

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Originally posted by Oner:

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It is a misnomer that these "Multiple sources state s0ny had a system completely open for hackers". For more info and facts about it you can read here & here (posts #491 through about #512) about it. Along with the users information was protected with a cryptographic hash function (Source here)

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Just a little issue with that...

Quote:

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As it turns out, it is fairly simple to use Google's webcache to show what version of Apache the PSN servers were using back in March. According to a page request archived by Google on March 23, 2011, at that time Sony was running version 2.2.17 of the software. You can see from Apache's website that 2.2.17 is the latest stable version of the webserver available even today. This is a direct repudiation of the claims being made that Sony's webservers were out of date by as much as five years.

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That is from the first article, which didn't mention the firewall at all...and Apache isn't what got hacked either.

The second link never even touched on the firewall issue.

Sony's own documents from their press conference show that they were not using firewalls on all access points...they show that it was a 2-prong attack; they attacked the application server directly, without going through a firewall, then injected code that allowed them to go strait to the database server...Sony admitted this themselves, so why do people keep trying to prove that their security was up to the task?



As for hashing the user information, they did not encrypt it while it was being transmitted, and hackers were in the servers for days, and they setup the PS3 to transmit your CC & address every time you log on, so they could have easily gotten a huge amount if information just from that. Sony was warned publicly and repeatedly, but sony was too busy suing Graf for working with Linux to bother with fixing massive security holes. Once it is in the system, I can't really say; I was not involved in the attack...but I highly doubt a company with backdoors on their app server would bother with 256 bit AES.

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I never said "their security was up to the task". All I showed was how certain info was incorrect in relation to what's being misrepresented or mixed together. Then later I also stated

Quote:

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There is a lot of misinformation out there. Hell it even got all the way up to the US Congress! Between the original "insecure servers" that stared about 4 or 5 months ago which was confused with the actual recent PSN outage (that I linked to above) to the Greece site attack yesterday and 1 or 2 other issues (one being confused as a hack when it was just a phishing scam) it gets quite confusing.

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I even also said "they are still having intrusion issues" which obviously cannot be confused with "their security was up to the task" (again something I never said). Actually I really shouldn't even bother because we all know people will believe what they want, even if what they heard is second/third/fourth hand and by their "brother's, friend's, uncle who supposedly works at Sony as a janitor said...".

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Comment by: SomeBozo (May 25, 2011 21:15)

Originally posted by Oner:

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I even also said "they are still having intrusion issues" which obviously cannot be confused with "their security was up to the task" (again something I never said). Actually I really shouldn't even bother because we all know people will believe what they want, even if what they heard is second/third/fourth hand and by their "brother's, friend's, uncle who supposedly works at Sony as a janitor said...".

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But i wonder if your comments add to the confusion. You are playing both sides of the issue, on one side you say a lot of information out there is false, erroneous and misleading, to which we can concluded that s0ny's infrastructure is secure no problems with intrusions. Yet within a few statements after you make the first you point you then say even within the last couple days s0ny's security has again been compromised by hackers.

It is confusing when you are defending s0ny as being secure and others provide good sources saying the contrary. At best you have only provided a rather generalized comment that many sources about s0ny's security problems are incorrect or misleading.

@Oner, will you please provide sources saying that s0ny's security is now secure against further attacks? A few of us have provided what i would think are solid, credible sources saying it isn't. If you can't, and reports that s0ny is continually getting hacked, it would appear the reports that s0ny's networks simply isn't secure must be true. Finally i don't see where anyone seriously commenting on this thread has tried to jump smear s0ny with the wild imaginary reports.

Comment by: Oner (May 25, 2011 21:43)

Originally posted by SomeBozo:

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Originally posted by Oner:

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I even also said "they are still having intrusion issues" which obviously cannot be confused with "their security was up to the task" (again something I never said). Actually I really shouldn't even bother because we all know people will believe what they want, even if what they heard is second/third/fourth hand and by their "brother's, friend's, uncle who supposedly works at Sony as a janitor said...".

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But i wonder if your comments add to the confusion. You are playing both sides of the issue, on one side you say a lot of information out there is false, erroneous and misleading, to which we can concluded that s0ny's infrastructure is secure no problems with intrusions. Yet within a few statements after you make the first you point you then say even within the last couple days s0ny's security has again been compromised by hackers.

It is confusing when you are defending s0ny as being secure and others provide good sources saying the contrary. At best you have only provided a rather generalized comment that many sources about s0ny's security problems are incorrect or misleading.

@Oner, will you please provide sources saying that s0ny's security is now secure against further attacks? A few of us have provided what i would think are solid, credible sources saying it isn't. If you can't, and reports that s0ny is continually getting hacked, it would appear the reports that s0ny's networks simply isn't secure must be true. Finally i don't see where anyone seriously commenting on this thread has tried to jump smear s0ny with the wild imaginary reports.

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I don't see how it is confusing, I linked to information that says in part this ~

Quote:

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deathindustrial ~ I was curious about the source of the outdated Apache server / no firewall claims. For the moment I am having to assume that it is related to the IRC log that was making the rounds back in February 2011:

http://www.ps3hax.net/showpost.php?p=172049&postcount=180

Google's cache from March 23 shows the server in question displaying the banner for 2.2.17 of Apache which is current:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:h9540GDnnIoJ:auth.np.ac.playstation.net:443/+auth.np.ac.playstation.net

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Of which I clearly referenced to in post #24

Quote:

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Between the original "insecure servers" that stared about 4 or 5 months ago which was confused with the actual recent PSN outage (that I linked to above)

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In the same post I linked to it also says

Quote:

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I then wanted to know what "forums" Dr.Spafford was using as his source for the congressional testimony (based on various news articles making the rounds) and so took a peek at his written submission and it contains this gem:

"I have no information about what protections they had in place, although some
news reports indicate that Sony was running software that was badly out of date, and had
been warned about that risk."

So anyone using Dr. Spafford as the source for the "they ran outdated software" claim did not actually read his submission - he doesn't know anything more than you or me. The situation is dire enough without media hacks making crap up.

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Of which I was referencing in comment #24 as well with Dr. Spafford's questioning to Congress

Quote:

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Hell it even got all the way up to the US Congress!

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The main general point I was simply trying to make in all of this, is that there is misinformation out there that people mix and match when one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Hence the prime example (of the original beyond3D link & direct quote above) about Dr. Spafford's questioning going off old data from February that he got from blogs and forums but stated "although some news reports indicate" when they were not from "the news" (or maybe they were, but the "news" got it from blogs & forums about the IRC logs without proper fact checking for the greatest media spectacle headline to gain hits which is more than likely).

But in actuallity that doesn't even matter (whether the "news" or himself got the misinfo) because basically he was NOT going from first hand knowledge in regards to the PSN outage last month. It's clear the data he was quoting in Congress had NOTHING to do with the PSN Outage. That is what I am referencing as to how even misinformation can make it to Congress...let alone in forums.

I am not "playing both sides" of anything. I am just offering additional info that hopefully clears up specific irregularities. I also never said "s0ny's security is now secure against further attacks". So please don't put words in my mouth just as KillerBug mistakenly did with the "their security was up to the task" comment. Because I never said EITHER of those things.

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