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Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 11, 2011 16:27)

Why is that every game discussions always end up with Saga vs. Nintendo, or that's the real competition or that's the real exclusivity? That's the past, stop dwelling on the past... It's like saying, yo man, did you see those caveman's drawings? That's the real stuff, that's exclusivity, there's no other competitions like this. What the hell that even mean?!?! It's like trying to tell today's kids how great the walkman was or those portable CD players... Enough said what? That the floppy disks are awesome? The 486s are totally rad? If you like so much, invent a time machine and stay there then.

I appreciate the past, because w/o it, there's no present. But come on, seriously, what does any of that has to do with the competition of the consoles TODAY?!?! It's like Sony whispering to MS, "Nintendo is gonna be ambushed by Sega, you just watch, the old war is not over" And MS giggles... It's ridiculous.

I hate those people label everything with CLASSIC. It's a classic man, don't you appreciate classics? What the hell does that even mean?!?! Okay, I get it, it's a classic argument, a classic returning/recurring statement. Well, I tell you what's classic is about, it's about things I want to forget, but some old farts always blabbering about them and I just don't want to hurt their feelings.

Comment by: TrinUK (Feb 11, 2011 16:38)

Not dwelling on the past but stating a fact. You claimed there is an abundance of exclusive titles for each consoles when clearly this is not the case and it is a fact that gaming sales have dropped for that very reason. People are bored with shooters and war game sequels and kids cannot play those games either!

This is why parents opted for the Wii.

I mentioned Sega vs Nintendo because I collect consoles as a hobby. From personal experience and others will agree that those times were the most exciting for video gaming while on the home computer side it was Commodore vs Atari. The next gens are not in the same class in that aspect. Boring as hell.... Hardware don't mean jack because technically they are pretty close. it's the software that makes the differences. And for 2011.... Another line up of shooters

Comment by: Oner (Feb 11, 2011 17:57)

Originally posted by lissenup2:

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I am only commenting on the sales of PS3 vs XBox 360. After much research and looking, I have only found that Xbox 360 still has a noteworthy amount of a lead on PS3 in total sales. Though you mentioned YoY but that's understandable because of the delay they had as opposed to XBox 360.

I haven't seen anything what-so-ever indicating that PS3 has outsold the 360 to date but have found many to the contrary.

---

3 Million is not "a noteworthy amount of a lead". The Wii is the only console that can actually say that. But I don't see what is so hard to grasp as the PS3 YoY has sold more vs the 360. It's quite simple actually ~ 360 5 years = +/- 10 Million a year vs PS3 4 years = +/- 12 Million year, when you average it out.

Even when you don't average it and go by their exact sold numbers the PS3 still outsold it YoY. The only reasons why the 360 has a higher total amount sold is because of the year head start (up to 1.5 year in the EU for a total of about 10+ Million at the start) & the RROD/E74 + Banning Repurchases throughout the 5 years. Also it was not so much of a "delay" (as you say towards Sony) but more so Microsoft rushing out a poorly designed console to get to market ahead of Sony at an attempt to gain market share (or by also using planned obsolescence possibly).

But these are already known & common things after 5 years already.

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Originally posted by TrinUK:

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I agree on the competition and you used the right word.
Now that is exactly where the problem lies, there is NO competition in the console market because software houses are launching the same games on each machine. So by doing this, they have become lazy and complacent.

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I disagree... If you look at the exclusive titles for each consoles, there's a lot of competition going on. If you're talking about multi-platform games, then yeah, plenty of laziness...

If Xbox is showing off Gears of War, PS3 counter with Uncharted... The console is also pushed by exclusive titles, this is why Nintendo is popular, not because the Wii is innovative. For those of us really appreciate games, multiple consoles are the key drivers to innovation.

---

This is correct. There is no comparison when it comes to exclusives & dev support on the PS3 & Wii vs the 360. Sony (20+) & Ninty (I think 10+) have more inhouse & exclusive devs making a variety of games/genres while MS has I believe 3...3 exclusive inhouse devs. They rely on 3rd party multiplatform games which doesn't exactly help with variety and when they do get an exclusive it is usually a timed one.

Originally posted by TrinUK:

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You claimed there is an abundance of exclusive titles for each consoles when clearly this is not the case and it is a fact that gaming sales have dropped for that very reason. People are bored with shooters and war game sequels and kids cannot play those games either!....And for 2011.... Another line up of shooters

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Gnawnivek's claim about an abundance of exclusives is based on fact. If you don't see them that does not make it true. I can sorta agree there are people who are bored with shooters but it must be from the 360 side more than the PS3/Wii camps because as I just explained above there are WAAAAY more devs making WAAAAY more varied games for the PS3/Wii than the 360. As for game sequels there is no greater than Mario but people don't really tire of that now do they? But that is neither here nor there I guess.

I do agree there is a HUGE amount of shooters this year but I think it just happened to work out that way not purposely planned or designed by Activision, EA, Epic, Crytek, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, Insomniac & who ever else. This year looks to be the year of the "3" ~ Killzone 3, Gears 3, Uncharted 3, Resistance 3...and while these are all sequels they are great franchises with enthralling story lines and exciting gameplay that have quite a following so if certain people aren't in to them no big deal right? They can just buy/play something else of interest that is available!

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Comment by: ps355528 (Feb 11, 2011 18:46)

never mind the rest of the edited for content that violates forum rules.. you bought the edited for content that violates forum rules thing... you paid for it.,.. who the edited for content that violates forum rules does it belong to.. them or you?

take it to court and throw it at the bastards.. minimum there is assault.. they can't prosecute you for taking it outside and hitting it with a hammer (yet) ..

and this is soooooo edited for content that violates forum rules funny.. swallow edited for content that violates forum rules and buy their products.. get screwed over.. edited for content that violates forum rules!!!

Comment by: Oner (Feb 11, 2011 19:04)

Originally posted by ps355528:

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never mind the rest of the edited for content that violates forum rules.. you bought the edited for content that violates forum rules thing... you paid for it.,.. who the edited for content that violates forum rules does it belong to.. them or you?

take it to court and throw it at the bastards.. minimum there is assault.. they can't prosecute you for taking it outside and hitting it with a hammer (yet) ..

and this is soooooo edited for content that violates forum rules funny.. swallow edited for content that violates forum rules and buy their products.. get screwed over.. edited for content that violates forum rules!!!

---

If you can't watch your language your account will be removed.

Search > http://forums.afterdawn.com/search
Rules > http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
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Comment by: ferrarie (Feb 12, 2011 00:02)

I have no sympathy for Sony,because over the years they have produced enough garbage,and passed it on to unsuspecting consumers.So I say,"ALL THE POWER TO THE HACKERS" and anyone else who can give them a run for thier money.
Yours Truly, Scorned Consumer.

Comment by: Jemborg (Feb 12, 2011 03:41)

Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by lissenup2:

---

I am only commenting on the sales of PS3 vs XBox 360. After much research and looking, I have only found that Xbox 360 still has a noteworthy amount of a lead on PS3 in total sales. Though you mentioned YoY but that's understandable because of the delay they had as opposed to XBox 360.

I haven't seen anything what-so-ever indicating that PS3 has outsold the 360 to date but have found many to the contrary.

---

3 Million is not "a noteworthy amount of a lead". The Wii is the only console that can actually say that. But I don't see what is so hard to grasp as the PS3 YoY has sold more vs the 360. It's quite simple actually ~ 360 5 years = +/- 10 Million a year vs PS3 4 years = +/- 12 Million year, when you average it out.

Even when you don't average it and go by their exact sold numbers the PS3 still outsold it YoY. The only reasons why the 360 has a higher total amount sold is because of the year head start (up to 1.5 year in the EU for a total of about 10+ Million at the start) & the RROD/E74 + Banning Repurchases throughout the 5 years. Also it was not so much of a "delay" (as you say towards Sony) but more so Microsoft rushing out a poorly designed console to get to market ahead of Sony at an attempt to gain market share (or by also using planned obsolescence possibly).

But these are already known & common things after 5 years already.

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

---

Originally posted by TrinUK:

---

I agree on the competition and you used the right word.
Now that is exactly where the problem lies, there is NO competition in the console market because software houses are launching the same games on each machine. So by doing this, they have become lazy and complacent.

---

I disagree... If you look at the exclusive titles for each consoles, there's a lot of competition going on. If you're talking about multi-platform games, then yeah, plenty of laziness...

If Xbox is showing off Gears of War, PS3 counter with Uncharted... The console is also pushed by exclusive titles, this is why Nintendo is popular, not because the Wii is innovative. For those of us really appreciate games, multiple consoles are the key drivers to innovation.

---

This is correct. There is no comparison when it comes to exclusives & dev support on the PS3 & Wii vs the 360. Sony (20+) & Ninty (I think 10+) have more inhouse & exclusive devs making a variety of games/genres while MS has I believe 3...3 exclusive inhouse devs. They rely on 3rd party multiplatform games which doesn't exactly help with variety and when they do get an exclusive it is usually a timed one.

Originally posted by TrinUK:

---

You claimed there is an abundance of exclusive titles for each consoles when clearly this is not the case and it is a fact that gaming sales have dropped for that very reason. People are bored with shooters and war game sequels and kids cannot play those games either!....And for 2011.... Another line up of shooters

---

Gnawnivek's claim about an abundance of exclusives is based on fact. If you don't see them that does not make it true. I can sorta agree there are people who are bored with shooters but it must be from the 360 side more than the PS3/Wii camps because as I just explained above there are WAAAAY more devs making WAAAAY more varied games for the PS3/Wii than the 360. As for game sequels there is no greater than Mario but people don't really tire of that now do they? But that is neither here nor there I guess.

I do agree there is a HUGE amount of shooters this year but I think it just happened to work out that way not purposely planned or designed by Activision, EA, Epic, Crytek, Guerilla Games, Naughty Dog, Insomniac & who ever else. This year looks to be the year of the "3" ~ Killzone 3, Gears 3, Uncharted 3, Resistance 3...and while these are all sequels they are great franchises with enthralling story lines and exciting gameplay that have quite a following so if certain people aren't in to them no big deal right? They can just buy/play something else of interest that is available!

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meh!

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: YOBUZZB (Feb 13, 2011 21:11)

Originally posted by Deadrum33:

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Originally posted by coorva:

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i guess sony like to be at the bottom of console sales
#1 WII 1million sold
#2 DS 900.000 sold
#3 XBOX 800.000 sold
#4 APPLE IPOD 700.000 sold
#5 sony ???

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One of these things is not like the others...

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Love it!!! Very funny stuff!

Comment by: YOBUZZB (Feb 13, 2011 21:22)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Originally posted by TrinUK:

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Forget PS3 sales. The machine is over hyped and a failure. I spent a lot of money on it hoping for great things and I wish I hadn't bothered. Blu ray players are so cheap now so it really doesn't justify the price for a PS3.

The Xbox 360 is a better machine only let down by the RROD saga. I think if MS get it right in the next console without any hardware problems, Sony may be in big trouble.

The same happened with Sega when they failed to deliver on the Saturn. I have a feeling the console wars will draw to a close in the not too distant future as game sales have declined(lack of ideas) and the market is very stale.

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Wow, just because you bought the PS3 at launch price ($600, that's what your comment sounded like), it doesn't mean the console is a hyped failure. Where have you been since the PS3's launch? The BD players are cheaper now, so does the PS3 price :)

The Xbox is the Xbox, saying if MS don't have RRoD problem, it probably kill the PS3 is like saying if Nintendo had gone with Sony's disc idea it would have killed the PS1. It's silly... Let there be competition, it's good for the consumers. Do I want to see MS fail? No! Do I want to see Sony fail? No! I don't want to see PC or Nintendo gaming fail either. I like choices, brand loyalty is just plain stupidity that stretch beyond infinity.

I root for hackers too, but for their intelligence, determination and curiosity, not for their arrogance, immaturity and cowardice.

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Why attack the character of a hacker? These are rebels with a cause. It is the nature of every human to rebel against things they don't like.

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 14, 2011 02:06)

Originally posted by YOBUZZB:

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Why attack the character of a hacker? These are rebels with a cause. It is the nature of every human to rebel against things they don't like.

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That's correct, it's in our nature to rebel against things we don't like. I didn't attack the character of the hackers, I basically said what I like about them and what I don't like about them. Every rebel has cause, every drop of blood and sweat have cause, heck, every seconds and keyboard click have cause... But let's face it, we're no different from blinded sheep if we just simply root for every cause. Remember, we don't like a lot of things, but we still continue to live as civilized beings because certain core values are our cause.

Comment by: Jemborg (Feb 14, 2011 03:05)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Originally posted by YOBUZZB:

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Why attack the character of a hacker? These are rebels with a cause. It is the nature of every human to rebel against things they don't like.

---

That's correct, it's in our nature to rebel against things we don't like. I didn't attack the character of the hackers, I basically said what I like about them and what I don't like about them. Every rebel has cause, every drop of blood and sweat have cause, heck, every seconds and keyboard click have cause... But let's face it, we're no different from blinded sheep if we just simply root for every cause. Remember, we don't like a lot of things, but we still continue to live as civilized beings because certain core values are our cause.

---

Since when does he say that all causes should be supported no matter how ridiculous they are?

Is that how you win arguments, by exaggerating, misrepresenting, minimising, maximising... all wrapped up in a nice patronising tone?

Your gonna have to do better than that... this is afterdawn.com.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: YOBUZZB (Feb 14, 2011 03:24)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Originally posted by YOBUZZB:

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Why attack the character of a hacker? These are rebels with a cause. It is the nature of every human to rebel against things they don't like.

---

That's correct, it's in our nature to rebel against things we don't like. I didn't attack the character of the hackers, I basically said what I like about them and what I don't like about them. Every rebel has cause, every drop of blood and sweat have cause, heck, every seconds and keyboard click have cause... But let's face it, we're no different from blinded sheep if we just simply root for every cause. Remember, we don't like a lot of things, but we still continue to live as civilized beings because certain core values are our cause.

---

Since when does he say that all causes should be supported no matter how ridiculous they are?

Is that how you win arguments, by exaggerating, misrepresenting, minimising, maximising... all wrapped up in a nice patronising tone?

Your gonna have to do better than that... this is afterdawn.com.

---

Come on people...it's not that serious. However, I will say this is not a conversation where there's a winner or loser. It's ok to share one's thoughts. You'll find some who'll agree with them and some who'll disagree. What we can agree on, is that Sony isn't going to get their act together, with the consumer in mind, anytime soon.

Comment by: Jemborg (Feb 14, 2011 04:32)

Originally posted by YOBUZZB:

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Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

---

Originally posted by YOBUZZB:

---

Why attack the character of a hacker? These are rebels with a cause. It is the nature of every human to rebel against things they don't like.

---

That's correct, it's in our nature to rebel against things we don't like. I didn't attack the character of the hackers, I basically said what I like about them and what I don't like about them. Every rebel has cause, every drop of blood and sweat have cause, heck, every seconds and keyboard click have cause... But let's face it, we're no different from blinded sheep if we just simply root for every cause. Remember, we don't like a lot of things, but we still continue to live as civilized beings because certain core values are our cause.

---

Since when does he say that all causes should be supported no matter how ridiculous they are?

Is that how you win arguments, by exaggerating, misrepresenting, minimising, maximising... all wrapped up in a nice patronising tone?

Your gonna have to do better than that... this is afterdawn.com.

---

Come on people...it's not that serious. However, I will say this is not a conversation where there's a winner or loser. It's ok to share one's thoughts. You'll find some who'll agree with them and some who'll disagree. What we can agree on, is that Sony isn't going to get their act together, with the consumer in mind, anytime soon.

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Your right. Actually, I wasn't meaning to be serious, just tongue-in-cheek. People bicker all the time on AD, :)

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 14, 2011 17:02)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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Is that how you win arguments, by exaggerating, misrepresenting, minimising, maximising... all wrapped up in a nice patronising tone?

Your gonna have to do better than that... this is afterdawn.com.

---

May I ask what was the argument? Yeah, the one I was accused of starting or defending? There wasn't none, lol.

Exaggerating? How?
Misrepresenting? What?
Minimizing? Who?
Maximizing? Where?

Patronizing tone? Yeah, that's because we're the rebels, how else one starts a revolution?

Comment by: TrinUK (Feb 14, 2011 17:07)

I feel a nuclear war coming on.....

The question is who will launch first?

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 14, 2011 18:20)

Nuclear war is inevitable... All it needs is a command or press of button (probably neither if you hack it). And guess what triggers such command? That's right, our noble cause...

We don't like how the products are sold to us, so we hack them. Most of us use the knowledge for the good of the products, but some of us do the opposite (use the knowledge for personal gains). The question is, what's our cause? Has it always been personal gains?

Comment by: Jemborg (Feb 14, 2011 18:50)

Read my previous comment- I was just kidding about. I apologise.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 14, 2011 19:55)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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Read my previous comment- I was just kidding about. I apologise.

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I'm not really mad at anybody, no apologies necessary, peace :)

Comment by: TrinUK (Feb 15, 2011 10:42)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Nuclear war is inevitable... All it needs is a command or press of button (probably neither if you hack it). And guess what triggers such command? That's right, our noble cause...

We don't like how the products are sold to us, so we hack them. Most of us use the knowledge for the good of the products, but some of us do the opposite (use the knowledge for personal gains). The question is, what's our cause? Has it always been personal gains?

---

Do you know what I find really frustrating? We have all the hardware at the ready in various shapes, sizes and speeds. we have many emulators but we don't have a specially designed operating system to merge all this into one great multi gaming platform. example - a quick loading standard boot bios like the Dreamcast or Xbox360. Hyperspin and MAME are really good but would be better if they were a full OS.

Comment by: TrinUK (Feb 15, 2011 10:49)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

---

Nuclear war is inevitable... All it needs is a command or press of button (probably neither if you hack it). And guess what triggers such command? That's right, our noble cause...

We don't like how the products are sold to us, so we hack them. Most of us use the knowledge for the good of the products, but some of us do the opposite (use the knowledge for personal gains). The question is, what's our cause? Has it always been personal gains?

---

I think America (CIA) or should I use their Synonym "Al-Qaeda" will drop a homemade nuke between now and 3 years. Likely targets? UK Olympics and a city in the US. Then they blame Iran and attack it all guns blazing.

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 15, 2011 16:06)

Originally posted by TrinUK:

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Do you know what I find really frustrating? We have all the hardware at the ready in various shapes, sizes and speeds. we have many emulators but we don't have a specially designed operating system to merge all this into one great multi gaming platform. example - a quick loading standard boot bios like the Dreamcast or Xbox360. Hyperspin and MAME are really good but would be better if they were a full OS.

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I'm with you, but such is life, lol. There can't be a magic box that does everything and pleases everybody. If such box exists, I don't think we need sites like AD, no? :) What's interesting is that if such box do get produced, people will demand for individualism and the cycle repeats. Simply put, we cannot be pleased :) Our insatiable desire to satisfy ourselves is so remarkable that we're beyond the infinity of stupidity. Whatever happen to enjoy the simple things in life? Like watch a dvd/BD instead of backing it up in vain, like spending time to play the actual games rather than finding ways to patch unplayable backups?

I have no comments to TrinUK's other post, err, I don't want to say anything rather, lol. TrinUK, you're BOLD :)

Comment by: dEwMe (Feb 15, 2011 16:47)

I still don't see how or why they should have any say over what you do with hardware you paid for. Sure I see their right to go after the game piracy but...It seems a lot like outlawing mp3 players cause people might be putting pirated music on them. Sure they'd love to be able to do that but no one would stand for it. Why is this any different?

Comment by: Gnawnivek (Feb 15, 2011 17:33)

@dEwMe (Reply button doesn't work, lol)

Quote:

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I still don't see how or why they should have any say over what you do with hardware you paid for. Sure I see their right to go after the game piracy but...It seems a lot like outlawing mp3 players cause people might be putting pirated music on them. Sure they'd love to be able to do that but no one would stand for it. Why is this any different?

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Nope, they don't really have any saying over what you do with the hardware you paid for. So, yeah, you don't really have any saying over what they want to do with the modding instructions you didn't pay for either :)

People are forgetting that the PS3 is tied to the PSN service. By modding the PS3, PSN service is compromised. While people own the PS3 console, but they don't own PSN. See, people who mod their PS3s will not stop until the modded console can be connected to PSN seamlessly like the registered consoles do. When that happens, nothing stops you from stealing, cheating and ultimately destroying everything most of us enjoy.

Do I enjoy my account or prepaid PSN credits being hijacked by some calculated algorithms?
How about playing an online match where the opponents are invincible?

Again, I've no quarrels with hacked/modded offline consoles, but as soon as PSN's security is threatened, I expect Sony to step up the plate and do something.

Comment by: YOBUZZB (Feb 15, 2011 20:16)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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@dEwMe (Reply button doesn't work, lol)

Quote:

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I still don't see how or why they should have any say over what you do with hardware you paid for. Sure I see their right to go after the game piracy but...It seems a lot like outlawing mp3 players cause people might be putting pirated music on them. Sure they'd love to be able to do that but no one would stand for it. Why is this any different?

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Nope, they don't really have any saying over what you do with the hardware you paid for. So, yeah, you don't really have any saying over what they want to do with the modding instructions you didn't pay for either :)

People are forgetting that the PS3 is tied to the PSN service. By modding the PS3, PSN service is compromised. While people own the PS3 console, but they don't own PSN. See, people who mod their PS3s will not stop until the modded console can be connected to PSN seamlessly like the registered consoles do. When that happens, nothing stops you from stealing, cheating and ultimately destroying everything most of us enjoy.

Do I enjoy my account or prepaid PSN credits being hijacked by some calculated algorithms?
How about playing an online match where the opponents are invincible?

Again, I've no quarrels with hacked/modded offline consoles, but as soon as PSN's security is threatened, I expect Sony to step up the plate and do something.

---

PSN isn't so much hardware, as it is software. Yes they have the right to protect that because you're paying for a service but the hardware is mine to do with as I please and they don't have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with what I own. I do, however, agree with your point regarding online play. Someone made a point of whether or not the cause is for personal gain. I'd say that for most, at least on some level, it's all about personal gain. There are the few that think of the greater good for all consumers but we're all trying to build a better mouse trap for our own enjoyment first, then share it.

Comment by: Jemborg (Feb 16, 2011 01:43)

Originally posted by Gnawnivek:

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Originally posted by TrinUK:

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Do you know what I find really frustrating? We have all the hardware at the ready in various shapes, sizes and speeds. we have many emulators but we don't have a specially designed operating system to merge all this into one great multi gaming platform. example - a quick loading standard boot bios like the Dreamcast or Xbox360. Hyperspin and MAME are really good but would be better if they were a full OS.

---

I'm with you, but such is life, lol. There can't be a magic box that does everything and pleases everybody. If such box exists, I don't think we need sites like AD, no? :) What's interesting is that if such box do get produced, people will demand for individualism and the cycle repeats. Simply put, we cannot be pleased :) Our insatiable desire to satisfy ourselves is so remarkable that we're beyond the infinity of stupidity. Whatever happen to enjoy the simple things in life? Like watch a dvd/BD instead of backing it up in vain, like spending time to play the actual games rather than finding ways to patch unplayable backups?

---

What about the challenge of hacking these systems? You might consider it infinitely stupid but it a relatively simple source of pleasure for these guys.

@ TrinUK, it won't happen, it would defeat the purpose of creating gaming systems in the first place. Check out the positive remarks regarding the benefits of competition in the previous posts on this thread.

In regards to Iran- seen the news lately? Rioting in the streets of Tehran... again. The US aren't likely to invade a country undergoing popular revolution. Better and cheaper to support the discontent fermenting- a la Egypt.

Iran before the English installed puppet Shar was a forward go-getting "western orientated" place. Completely unlike what it is like now. If the US were to invade they would reverse the unrest and firmly unite the population against them. Utter stupidity!

If and when democracy returns to Iran the US will adopt a "wait and see" policy. Especially since their CIA seem to have no idea what is going on anywhere anyway as per; they were completely taken aback by unexpected post election rioting last year.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.