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Xbox 360 slim unit shuts down if ventilation is insufficient?

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Dela @ Jun 22, 2010 00:38 | 36 comments

Microsoft's new slim Xbox 360 console will not display a red ring of death (RROD) as we reported already, but the system does take some measures to protect itself against heat-related damage that the older units don't. It was reported recently that the three blinking red lights had been replaced with a single "red dot of death", but the red dot may not indicate that the console is broken.

Pictures posted on the NeoGaf forums by "Giant Robot" show an Xbox 360 250GB model displaying the red dot of death, and also an on-screen message alerting the user: "The Xbox 360 is shutting down to protect the console from insufficient ventilation. You can turn the console back on after the power light stops flashing."

Source: NeoGaf

I can't confirm a forum source, obviously, but it is being reported more or less everywhere else so why not. It just so happens that I have modified the chassis of an older Xbox 360 console to improve air-flow and ventilation before.

Combining Arctic Silver 5 thermal paste on CPU and GPU, a modified fan shroud to force more air "through" the heatsinks to escape the chassis, cutting away some of the mesh of the inner shell and laying the console horizontally instead of vertically makes two noticeable differences; the fans always stay on low speed and noticeably more heat is exhausted from the rear of the console.

Still, you shouldn't have to open an Xbox 360 console to make sure it's properly ventilated anyway, so let's hope that warnings such as the one displayed above are not common.

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Comment by: IguanaC64 (Jun 29, 2010 12:51)

@Voyager - From the article, it does not look like this is the RRoD. This is a thermal cutoff mechanism that's supposed to save your system before what would be the RRoD. It means your setup is too hot and you need to provide better ventilation. I'm unsure what the PS3 has done in the past to make sure it doesn't melt in bad ventilation situations, but looking at the history of the 360, Microsoft has more to learn in this area...maybe larger/low RPM cooling fans that are easily replaceable? Servers have pretty nice drop in fan units, but they are usually small and loud as hell (because they have to cool 1 and 2U servers they have to be limited in size). Other than small/sexy factor, there's no reason not to use these to cool your system.

After reading all these 360 failures, if I decided to buy one I would invest in 3rd party cooling systems...

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 29, 2010 13:35)

Ah so its the PSU is saying your unit is to hot I bet there could be sensor failures as well. Whats the pin out on the new units power plug is it 12 volt?

I wonder if you pluged in a 12V X amp thingy if it would fire up or not.

Until lobbying is a hanging offense I choose anarchy!
Ah modern gaming its like modern film only the watering down of fiction and characters is replaced with shallow and watered down mechanics, gimmicks and shiny-er "people".
http://zippydsmlee.wordpress.com/

Comment by: Jemborg (Jun 30, 2010 13:45)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
Ah so its the PSU is saying your unit is to hot....

Zip, the YouTube link that Oner posted dealt with a PSU/powerbrick failure not connected to the AD news article above.

@Oner: If I did believe that you ever owned six X360s I'd say it took you a long time to learn that lesson. Still, my old Falcon model has never RRODed.

@IguanaC64: It does have a bigger, lower rpm fan in it:

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 30, 2010 14:41)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
Ah so its the PSU is saying your unit is to hot....

Zip, the YouTube link that Oner posted dealt with a PSU/powerbrick failure not connected to the AD news article above.

@Oner: If I did believe that you ever owned six X360s I'd say it took you a long time to learn that lesson. Still, my old Falcon model has never RRODed.

@IguanaC64: It does have a bigger, lower rpm fan in it:

I thought the power brick gets sent a over heating signal and wont power on? (oh god I just realize I haz the process ass backwards)

Comment by: Jemborg (Jun 30, 2010 15:45)

Hey Zip, you can't quite tell what happened. Granted, the problem in Oner's YouTube vid may actually have been the X360's. The brick did have a green light till the unit was turned on, so maybe it's ok and there's a short in the main unit.

It wasn't an overheat problem anyway. Arguably it's a ordinary factory fault in either part (main or power supply) and it's too early to tell if it's an entrenched problem on some chronic level. Anyone who would leap to the conclusion that MS have not tried to deal with overheating issues has to be a fool. I'll bet it already been replaced under warranty.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Jun 30, 2010 15:49)

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Hey Zip, you can't quite tell what happened. Granted, the problem in Oner's YouTube vid may actually have been the X360's. The brick did have a green light till the unit was turned on, so maybe it's ok and there's a short in the main unit.

It wasn't an overheat problem anyway. Arguably it's a ordinary factory fault in either part (main or power supply) and it's too early to tell if it's an entrenched problem on some chronic level. Anyone who would leap to the conclusion that MS have not tried to deal with overheating issues has to be a fool. I'll bet it already been replaced under warranty.

Ya its an odd bug I hope they get it worked out by the time I get one in 2ish years LOL

A short could be it could the heat censor but messed up thus forcing the unit off?

Comment by: Jemborg (Jun 30, 2010 16:13)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Hey Zip, you can't quite tell what happened. Granted, the problem in Oner's YouTube vid may actually have been the X360's. The brick did have a green light till the unit was turned on, so maybe it's ok and there's a short in the main unit.

It wasn't an overheat problem anyway. Arguably it's a ordinary factory fault in either part (main or power supply) and it's too early to tell if it's an entrenched problem on some chronic level. Anyone who would leap to the conclusion that MS have not tried to deal with overheating issues has to be a fool. I'll bet it already been replaced under warranty.
Ya its an odd bug I hope they get it worked out by the time I get one in 2ish years LOL

A short could be it could the heat censor but messed up thus forcing the unit off?

If you watched that YouTube vid the guy said it powered off whist he was watching Netflix on it. And it won't power on again. No message screen. But it is the powerbrick displaying a red light not the main unit. He claims heat and adequate airflow is not an issue. So your guess is as good as mine. However, under the circumstances, it doesn't mean it's the main unit's problem, you just can't tell. It's strongly suggested it's the PSU's though coz it's the bit displaying the error signal (red light). Y'know I often fix pooters and even on ones that display odd non-starting properly behaviour the first thing I do is replace the power supply- 95% of the time that's the problem.

It too early to to call it a "bug". May just be a rare factory fault. Time will tell.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: hooter007 (Jun 30, 2010 16:52)

Originally posted by givingmer:
jeez man, can't micro$oft just make a damn console that works without any issue.

HOOTER007

Comment by: Jemborg (Jun 30, 2010 17:33)

Originally posted by givingmer:
jeez man, can't micro$oft just make a damn console that works without any issue.

You mean like this one?

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/39/672905

959 posts and counting...

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Oner (Jul 01, 2010 02:00)

Originally posted by Jemborg:
@Oner: If I did believe that you ever owned six X360s I'd say it took you a long time to learn that lesson. Still, my old Falcon model has never RRODed.

Me specifically saying I just got my 6th RROD does not = 6 purchases. I have thrown everything at my launch Pro model to keep the piece of shit alive but to no avail it still failed. Fact is a great portion of 360's that were sold to the public WILL have a 100% failure rate. That is inevitable. I know of 2 people personally that have launch 360's which have never RRODed...EVERYONE else that I know, has (and at least 2 times each).

Originally posted by Jemborg:

Originally posted by givingmer:
jeez man, can't micro$oft just make a damn console that works without any issue.
You mean like this one?

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/39/672905

959 posts and counting...

959 posts and counting which have multiple replies or questions that do not equal a failure to each of those "959 replies"...but whatever, there are problems with all consoles just nowhere near the amount of issues compared to a 360

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Comment by: Jemborg (Jul 01, 2010 18:12)

Originally posted by Oner:
Me specifically saying I just got my 6th RROD does not = 6 purchases...

Fair enough. However, still find it hard to believe you have even owned one, sorry.

Quote:
...I have thrown everything at my launch Pro model to keep the piece of shit alive but to no avail it still failed. Fact is a great portion of 360's that were sold to the public WILL have a 100% failure rate. That is inevitable. I know of 2 people personally that have launch 360's which have never RRODed...EVERYONE else that I know, has (and at least 2 times each).

Ooh, unmasked swearing, still, I suppose you can get away with it (jk). Anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal evidence Oner. In contrast, with my extensive personal (also anecdotal) experience working in a console repair shop - something you've forgotten - I can point to literally hundreds of people who had the BROD with their PS3s. In comparison a far far larger sample than your mates. Indeed, it's not as bad as the RRODs but they at least have the extended 3 year warranty. In other words, yes, the shop would see a lot more X360s if not for that. Note: most of the X360s presented are modded so have voided warranty... it is not illegal to mod consoles in Australia btw.

Regardless, fact is, the X360 is still a popular console for some reason, so someone is getting a lot of use out of theirs somehow.

Originally posted by Jemborg:

Originally posted by givingmer:
jeez man, can't micro$oft just make a damn console that works without any issue.
You mean like this one?

http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/39/672905

959 posts and counting...

Originally posted by Oner:
959 posts and counting which have multiple replies or questions that do not equal a failure to each of those "959 replies"...

I never said it did so that remark is irrelevant. My point is still made, unless you're suggesting only a couple of people are responsible for that thread.

Quote:
...but whatever, there are problems with all consoles...

Indubitably... you are iterating my point to Givingmer (and hooter007).

Quote:
...just nowhere near the amount of issues compared to a 360

This is a strange link you have given here... some connection with flashing or modding ones X360 and risking RRODs? Is there some agenda I'm missing here? My X360 is modded and has a non-MS HDD in it, as I thought you knew. I don't know why you feel the need to have thrown your oar into a reply to a post not directed to yourself here... you didn't add anything and you didn't negate me. (I did not say that the RROD issue is on par with the BROD issue... just that it's very real one too.) Do you just not like someone jokingly pointing out the absurdity that other consoles are not 100% fault free either?

My point is, and has been, that it's too early to dump on the new model yet. Fair enough?

Btw, as of today, it's now 961 posts and counting...I'm tempted to add one just to help it hit the magic 1000 mark. :)

PS: I feel the need to point out here (to whomever) that whilst I do own a X360 I would consider myself a fan of Xpadder on high-end PC more than anything. Also, I consider the PS3 a good machine with some excellent exclusive games.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Oner (Jul 01, 2010 19:48)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

Originally posted by Oner:
Me specifically saying I just got my 6th RROD does not = 6 purchases...
Fair enough. However, still find it hard to believe you have even owned one, sorry.

What you believe and what IS the truth are 2 totally different things.

Even with proof you probably won't believe me because that is your angle. I can sit here and break down your whole comment with more proof and links and articles but I don't need to, nor want to. Those who are knowledgeable about the subject are fully aware of what is true, what isn't, what's FUD and what is nothing but excuses.

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Comment by: Jemborg (Jul 02, 2010 00:05)

Originally posted by Oner:

Originally posted by Jemborg:

Originally posted by Oner:
Me specifically saying I just got my 6th RROD does not = 6 purchases...
Fair enough. However, still find it hard to believe you have even owned one, sorry.
What you believe and what IS the truth are 2 totally different things.

Even with proof you probably won't believe me because that is your angle. I can sit here and break down your whole comment with more proof and links and articles but I don't need to, nor want to. Those who are knowledgeable about the subject are fully aware of what is true, what isn't, what's FUD and what is nothing but excuses.

ROFLMAO

I'm so flattered Oner... ahahahahahahahahaha

I just said I found it hard to believe... lol, besides how do I know you just didn't borrow one from one of your alleged friends???? Hehe.

And the rest of my comment... what's there to break down? I was quite reasonable. (Are you suggesting it isn't too early to dump on the new model?) You laughably love to arrogantly bandy the word "truth" repeatedly about again and again in posts like some sort of fundamentalist preacher - the gospel according to Oner - when mostly what I see is projected FUD myself (like that link to the dud X360 powerbrick)... any chance to put the boot in. Really, it's horses for courses. Sure, my word as a person who's worked in the console repair business (that includes all consoles) supposedly means nothing to your blinkered yes-men-only know-it-all mentality but I'm sure others might take note. (Especially considering your reaction.)

It's a shame you took such umbrage anyway... please try to focus on the last paragraph of my previous post. If you got that far...

As it is, I no longer work in that repair shop, I'm self employed nowadays building pooters to spec amongst other stuff, but I still retain close ties with the guys there. In comparison to that, what is it that you do for a living that makes you the foremost expert on the subject of consoles that you claim you are? (Yes, I know you've owned a few.)

(Again, I truly am flattered by that pic, it's made my day (well almost, you can't beat my newborn son). I'll treasure it always. Thanks.)

Cheers,
Jem

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Oner (Jul 02, 2010 01:12)

Like I said ~

Originally posted by Oner:
Even with proof you probably won't believe me because that is your angle. I can sit here and break down your whole comment with more proof and links and articles but I don't need to, nor want to.

You try and try and try and just like the others (Varnull, 13thHour, Se7ven, pphoenix + a couple others) and get nowhere. Some learn and some don't. I really don't need to be bothered. Again, as I said

Originally posted by Oner:
Those who are knowledgeable about the subject are fully aware of what is true, what isn't, what's FUD and what is nothing but excuses.

That is all that needs to be said.

As far as what I do for a living...It's none of your damned business what I do ;). But, I will placate your request temporarily ~ the same as you. Self Employed for over 10 years I would guesstimate. Building, Repairing, Maintaining & Upgrading computers (Home & Small Business). From Software to Hardware. Including dabbling in networking ranging small to medium sized, from runnings drops to Wireless solutions. But this has absolutely NOTHING to do with my expertise and knowledge that I have provided Afterdawn & our members/visitors for almost the last 8 years in our console forum section(s) and more. And that is all YOU need to know about me that I will so graciously let on.

And on that note I think this topic has gone off topic long enough (as usual it seems to come back to "questioning" Oner for some odd reason). I mean GOD FORBID we actually talk about the topic at hand *cough* new Xbox 360 failures/issues *cough* instead of specifically making it a personal thing about Oner...

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Comment by: IguanaC64 (Jul 02, 2010 13:57)

Yeah...I was mostly wanting to know if this meant the new XB360's were *less* reliable than the older models or if this was overaggressive heat management. Regardless of their history, they have gotten more reliable and my wife is starting to ask me for a new system. She wants a PS3, but I think I'd rather get a XBox because I can tinker with it more than I can a PS3. It would be my first Microsoft console after owning 3 PS2's and a Wii (I'm more of a PC gamer than a console gamer...)

Comment by: Oner (Jul 02, 2010 16:00)

Can't go wrong pleasing the wife right! What exactly do you want to "tinker" with on a 360 over a PS3? Flashing the drive? Jtag? Adding cooling features?

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Comment by: IguanaC64 (Jul 02, 2010 16:28)

My kids and guests at my house are not kind to optical media. I always try to set up some method to either play games from a hard drive or use backups. I also like playing emulator stuff for NES/SNES/Genesis/MAME/Etc.

Toward the end of life of these devices, I like experimenting with running stuff like XBMC or FTP/Web server software.

Comment by: dEwMe (Jul 02, 2010 16:31)

Originally posted by Oner:
Can't go wrong pleasing the wife right! What exactly do you want to "tinker" with on a 360 over a PS3? Flashing the drive? Jtag? Adding cooling features?

That's why I own 2 360s...Never an issue but to be fair mine were made after they fixed the RROD issues.

I do plan to buy a PS3....just as soon as they make it easy to "tinker" with! LOL

Just my $0.02,

dEwMe

Comment by: dEwMe (Jul 02, 2010 16:33)

Oh also you know there's a healthy market for those RROD consoles right? They are fairly easy to fix I guess...

Just my $0.02,

dEwMe

Comment by: IguanaC64 (Jul 02, 2010 17:54)

Originally posted by dEwMe:
Oh also you know there's a healthy market for those RROD consoles right? They are fairly easy to fix I guess...

I'd believe it...RRoD repair kits are only like $25 from Divineo.

Comment by: Jemborg (Jul 02, 2010 18:58)

@Oner:

Like I said (since were into quoting ourselves)~

Originally posted by Jemborg:
... what's there to break down {in my post}?

...nothing. I was reasonable... anybody with half a brain can see that.

Blah blah blah, whatever Oner. Just more obfuscation, rhetoric, high-handedness and FUD (I love that expression!). Thanks for the "graciousness" rofl.

But ("GOD FORBID" lol) can you stop acting the victim? It's getting tired.

Patently, I was on topic, concerning reliability/failure, in all my posts.

I even asked you a direct on-topic question in my last post... Are you suggesting it isn't too early to dump on the new model?

Sigh, I was really hoping you had more real experience in the actual field rather than just being a dilettante. It's rather astonishing that you tout yourself as more of an expert in this than registered business people that actually repair consoles for a living. (These guys repair vintage consoles too btw.)

(I'm not sure whether to drop their website here. Would that be considered spruking?)

I'll take you to task because you go overboard. They're all (including the Wii) ok machines. Competition benefits all of us; as much as they'd love to jerk the consumer around ordinarily... someone (M Trebilcock- great name!) is taking Sony to court over the latest PS3 upgrade in my homestate ~ he's crazy or confident, coz I'd just buy a new one... or a netbook.

I won't be pretentious enough to formally "quote" myself again but I'll suggest that anyone with real concerns should adopt a simple wait and see attitude. But that's doesn't beg a need to be pessimistic... especially to the people who've already bought one. As I wrote, anybody who thinks that MS have not tried to address the overheating issues with the brand new model has a fool for a mentor or has an agenda.

Meanwhile this silly article should be taken for what it is... hyperbole over a ordinary straightforward cutout circuit. Big deal.

PS: Meanwhile meanwhile, I'm back off to my new rather excellent HD 5970 and Xpadder for a good game.

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Jemborg (Jul 02, 2010 19:50)

Originally posted by IguanaC64:
Yeah...I was mostly wanting to know if this meant the new XB360's were *less* reliable than the older models or if this was overaggressive heat management. Regardless of their history, they have gotten more reliable and my wife is starting to ask me for a new system. She wants a PS3, but I think I'd rather get a XBox because I can tinker with it more than I can a PS3. It would be my first Microsoft console after owning 3 PS2's and a Wii (I'm more of a PC gamer than a console gamer...)

I'd adopt a wait and see attitude with that too Iggy. It may be rather tricky to "tinker" with the new model yet. As you probably know, MS made it more difficult to mod with later models so chances are they stepped it up another notch. But maybe not, I'll ask around. But I'm on the same page, I find that aspect appealing too. Better to bugger up a backup and/or play off HDD plus I prefer my PC nowadays too haha.. 1080p (or higher) rulez bro!... and I do like a bit of retro.

Often those repair kits are unfortunately a bit iffy mate. If a X360 buggers up it's fix is often temporary, on account of the crap solder used. Still, I recall the use of flux as part of the best fix.

Ah, here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2R_NqF5wAc

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Oner (Jul 02, 2010 20:27)

Originally posted by Jemborg:
@Oner:

Like I said (since were into quoting ourselves)~
Originally posted by Jemborg:
... what's there to break down {in my post}?
...nothing. I was reasonable... anybody with half a brain can see that.

Blah blah blah, whatever Oner. Just more obfuscation, rhetoric, high-handedness and FUD (I love that expression!). Thanks for the "graciousness" rofl.

But ("GOD FORBID" lol) can you stop acting the victim? It's getting tired.

Patently, I was on topic, concerning reliability/failure, in all my posts.

I even asked you a direct on-topic question in my last post... Are you suggesting it isn't too early to dump on the new model?

Sigh, I was really hoping you had more real experience in the actual field rather than just being a dilettante. It's rather astonishing that you tout yourself as more of an expert in this than registered business people that actually repair consoles for a living. (These guys repair vintage consoles too btw.)

(I'm not sure whether to drop their website here. Would that be considered spruking?)

I'll take you to task because you go overboard. They're all (including the Wii) ok machines. Competition benefits all of us; as much as they'd love to jerk the consumer around ordinarily... someone (M Trebilcock- great name!) is taking Sony to court over the latest PS3 upgrade in my homestate ~ he's crazy or confident, coz I'd just buy a new one... or a netbook.

I won't be pretentious enough to formally "quote" myself again but I'll suggest that anyone with real concerns should adopt a simple wait and see attitude. But that's doesn't beg a need to be pessimistic... especially to the people who've already bought one. As I wrote, anybody who thinks that MS have not tried to address the overheating issues with the brand new model has a fool for a mentor or has an agenda.

Meanwhile this silly article should be taken for what it is... hyperbole over a ordinary straightforward cutout circuit. Big deal.

PS: Meanwhile meanwhile, I'm back off to my new rather excellent HD 5970 and Xpadder for a good game.

So let me get this straight ~ first you say I am gloating. When I am not. Then you call me out on having 6 RROD's or owning 6 360's as you misinterpreted. Only for me to explain I have only owned 1 360. To then you bringing in PS3 Blu-ray issues into this for some odd reason. To then accuse me of not even owning a 360. Only for me to prove you wrong (as usual) and you didn't even excuse yourself for that "mistake". To then STILL continue trolling/instigating something with me specifically asking about my "expertise" and such, when I did not start anything with you personally (only defending myself to your constant baseless false accusations & trolling). And then you try and finish it off by making it seem as you did nothing by saying I am "playing" a victim here, when the proof is right here in black and white for everyones verification to see your incessant nagging and badgering at me on a personal level...um yeah, Okay.

I don't need to play these games with you. Been there, done that. Just as those mentioned before you who take it to a personal level, instead of just disagreeing, making a point of discussion and/or simply moving on. THAT is where you and the others, always fail. Even when I try to avoid the issue and tell you I am not going to bother breaking down your "points" to prevent an argument you STILL take it to a PERSONAL level/issue. What does what I do for a living have to do with the abysmal and unacceptable failure rates that is a known occurrence on the 360? SERIOUSLY! What does my personal life have to do with ANY OF THIS? Why bring ONER personally into the discussion? Meanwhile your assumptions that I do not have any experience with console repairs (when I absolutely do) DOESN'T even cross your mind...just because I didn't say I don't doesn't mean I don't. I only gave you what I wanted you to know about me and nothing more, because it's none of your God Damned business what I do for a living.

As I have said, I have known your angle for a loooong time. It's clear as day and you keep trying to push my buttons. Well don't bitch when I push back; as there has been more than enough warning.

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Comment by: Jemborg (Jul 03, 2010 02:30)

Pfft... whatever.

Go back and read my posts a bit more carefully mate.

I've taken nothing personally... I've just found it risible. After all, I didn't send a photo back. My question about what you did for a living was obviously only essentially rhetorical.

The question I did want you to answer Oner was: Are you suggesting it isn't too early to dump on the new model?

I'd have to repeat myself further to counter those false claims about being off-topic etc. I did not say you had no experience in repairs- just not much in my opinion in comparison to people working in the biz. So politely I ask you to please stop putting words in my mouth... again.

There's no need to resort to threats. As you said, why should it bother you if I have trouble believing you? Is it trolling if someone dares question you?

Its a lot easier being righteous than right.

Comment by: Oner (Jul 03, 2010 17:19)

Originally posted by Jemborg:
Pfft... whatever.

Go back and read my posts a bit more carefully mate.

I've taken nothing personally... I've just found it risible. After all, I didn't send a photo back. My question about what you did for a living was obviously only essentially rhetorical.

The question I did want you to answer Oner was: Are you suggesting it isn't too early to dump on the new model?

I'd have to repeat myself further to counter those false claims about being off-topic etc. I did not say you had no experience in repairs- just not much in my opinion in comparison to people working in the biz. So politely I ask you to please stop putting words in my mouth... again.

There's no need to resort to threats. As you said, why should it bother you if I have trouble believing you? Is it trolling if someone dares question you?

To answer your "question" quickly about if it's not too early to dump on the new 360? No it's not. Especially since they should have released a working model 5 years ago with the additional items it currently has i.e. a big HDD, WiFi & Etc. But I will get to the heart of your comment now ~

There is an absolute clear difference between someone asking a question and someone with a proven, documented, verifiable & consistent trolling agenda that is obviously filled with malcontent behind/in it. That is your angle towards me and what you specifically attempt to do (just as those I named earlier) and the proof is there. As I said ~ don't bitch when you get pushed back, because it sure looks like you are making up excuses to cover your ass now.

And since there is no more real discussion about this topic by other forum members I believe it is best to close this thread to end this BS comical charade.

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