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Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 06, 2008 22:47)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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Ya but once the coding issues get dealt with the industry as a whole will be able to code for it quicker and between the better hardware and optimized code it will last longer.

Don't get me wrong all MS has to do is stick a BR drive in it optimize the board alil for better HDMI output add a alil more ramm, sell it for the same price as now and its all good till the end of this generation. I think they would be better of with a 1.5 "upgrade" than bringing out a whole 2.0 new system in a couple years...

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Ok Zip...

Why ever think the the X360 has less potential for game development than the PS3? Why because the PS3 is more radical, more powerful? Whoever designed the thing shut game programmers out the door (again)! The X360's GPU is superior to the PS3s with super fast cashes involved, it's memory architecture isn't split between the GPU and the CPU, so less bottlenecks. And talking of the CPUs, they are both modified Xeons, the difference being that the PS3 has only one general purpose instruction core, where the 360 has three! The other six cores are for floating point calcs only, and game programmers don't give a stuff about greater FP calcs over general instruction capacity. Given that the CPU of the X360 has a GI set specifically designed around game programming (eg branch predictors, gofetch commands etc.) how does that above argument hold water? You can't build a mansion on a shaky foundation.. Put it another way, say my PC has a better CPU but only a nVidia 8600gt compared to my mates 9600gt gfx. Which machine do you think is going to have the better graphics...? Do you think he would swap his PC for mine...? Like hell he would... it's a no-brainer! In the final analysis it comes down to the actual games you want to play! Go retro for all I care, but don't tell me an over-blown BluRay software decoding player has more potential as a games platform over one that was designed for the job. Ahem.

I know programming, and there is no reason that the X360s code can't be optimised further in the future.

What's this about needing better HDMI? I run it and a number of other HDMI devices on a 50" screen at home- no difference... what rubbish. Why does the 360 need more ram than the PS3- more lines of code are needed to achieve similar results on the PS3 anyway, regardless of optimisation. RAM was doubled in later models of the original Xbox (coz of manufacturing costs) and did it make a jot of difference? ...no? Why? Because the game's code is (unlike in PCs) "bulletproofed"- only written with that amount ram in mind. The RAM table is directly addressed not indirectly, the reason why consoles are more efficient with what they have than PCs. And why should it need crap software BluRay over a independent dedicated hardware decoding device, to make it more attractive?

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Oy........you do realize games are getting bigger and you can not have a MP game to be on multi discs....new games are also needing more power than what the old 360 design can properly handle.... ....

Lets go with a simple comparasion of the 360 and PS3, and before I start the 360 was build with PC style programming in mind, it starts ahead of the PS3 in the short run but cannot gain as much momentum from its code updates like the PS3 can over a longer period of time.
Right now a lot of the gen1 issues like loading/caching have been dealt with, but the main trouble is the disc speed and the ramm.


360 Bottlenecks/limits
DVD format:face it its a problem, MP based games that require more disc space will be limited.

HD limits:MS stupid ieda to try and lock the HD back fired.

HDMI interfacing/chipset(its "bad" for Hdef video):At least everything I have read leads me to believe it could more refining


PS3
Code:Is a bitch to code for, but when optimized runs better than normal code on the 360.

Ramm:Not enough of it but fast enough to compensate for it this becomes less a problem as code gets optimized.

Disc speed:T0 slow and OTF caching seems wishy washy even at this time thus you need to install data.


The reason why you want to boost the 360 some is so new games can take advantage of the 1.5 features, you allow devs to make BR games let them invest in Extended editions of the game on BR along side the DVD version some will chose to not bother with a DVD version.

Now if MS would drop the locked HDD scheme and sale a 50$ or less HDD kit that can put most HDD types on the 360 then they can install 10-30GB worth of game data on them keeping the saves and scores separate.


And I say this to keep the 360 going for the next 5 years, as it is now the 360 is showing its age and will not last another 2-3 years, hell in that time frame the PS3 will position itself for the number 2 slot on sales so MS will have 2 choices revamp the 360 to fight it out for another 2-4 years or bring out a new console and no one really wants to see a new console out just yet.......

Altho if it didn't have a HDD lock, had BR, could play Xbox and 360 titles nativity AND can fully customize control on a pad or mouse and or keyboard in the menu(with preset lists) I would be sold here's my 600$!

But as it is the 360 is feeling its age it might have a few years left but its got issues, the WII was never built on graphics and being a media center so it dose not matter what it is since its squashing everyone.

The PS3 has issues as well but it has higher to go as its hardware foundation is higher than the 360s and can maintain in market longer.

Hell if MS just unlocked the HDD and do something about control configuration that bypasses devs crappy cookie cutter layouts I'd buy a new 360 just for that...

Comment by: varnull (Oct 06, 2008 23:08)

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I have a friend building a museum of consoles, can he find a working fat PS2? ...no.

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Cash Converters, Wigan.. 20+ in stock.. 60 day warranty £44.99. Some even still have the original box and manual.

Same here.. I have a stack of ps2's which are in the "uneconomic to repair" heap. I sell the odd part to somebody from time to time.. but soon they will all go to landfill.
I have 2 xbox machines with dead everything... because of the pretty stock parts they can be cannabalised to a greater extent than the ps2... And I'm an xbox modder/repairer.. the ps2 was because people brought them to me... found out the price of a new laser and just went and bought a £45 one.

The 360 failure rates are in line with the electronics industry standard 0.03% of items which leave the factory, and 0.3% of total units made before QC.. otherwise they would stop making them until they solved the problem.

Of the millions sold how many have never ever given any problems whatsoever? The vast majority. I do think that the overall build quality is poor.. especially the very cheap and nasty dvd drives, and the cooling is borderline.. But to say that 90% have failed is ridiculous.. No manufacturer can sustain a 5% failure rate, let alone 90%. Much of the shouting about failure is people jumping on the bandwagon when their tampered with ebay purchase goes wrong within weeks.
I have seen one person insist on buying rrod 360's on ebay over and over looking for the "easy fix".. failing (because they know bugger all about electronics.. can't even fix a van alternator) miserably and then selling it back on ebay.. only 6 months later to buy the exact same console again after it has been messed about with by another 6 people in the meantime.
We are starting to see the first of the ps3's with disk drive failure.. soon the floodgates will open and we will be back in ps2 world all over again.... except this time.. I'm not going to build a heap of them out the back. They don't stack so nice.

Free open source software = made by end users who want an application to work. The flower of carnage-shura no hana

Comment by: Oner (Oct 06, 2008 23:40)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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The X360's GPU is superior to the PS3s with super fast cashes involved, it's memory architecture isn't split between the GPU and the CPU, so less bottlenecks.

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While the 360's "graphics card" (Xenos) in itself may be more powerful than the PS3's "graphics card" (RSX) you omit the fact that the Cell HELPS in this area so in the end it is the other way around...well, if utilized properly that is ;).

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Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 07, 2008 02:28)

Originally posted by varnull:

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Quote:

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I have a friend building a museum of consoles, can he find a working fat PS2? ...no.

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Cash Converters, Wigan.. 20+ in stock.. 60 day warranty £44.99. Some even still have the original box and manual.

Same here.. I have a stack of ps2's which are in the "uneconomic to repair" heap. I sell the odd part to somebody from time to time.. but soon they will all go to landfill.
I have 2 xbox machines with dead everything... because of the pretty stock parts they can be cannabalised to a greater extent than the ps2... And I'm an xbox modder/repairer.. the ps2 was because people brought them to me... found out the price of a new laser and just went and bought a £45 one.

The 360 failure rates are in line with the electronics industry standard 0.03% of items which leave the factory, and 0.3% of total units made before QC.. otherwise they would stop making them until they solved the problem.

Of the millions sold how many have never ever given any problems whatsoever? The vast majority. I do think that the overall build quality is poor.. especially the very cheap and nasty dvd drives, and the cooling is borderline.. But to say that 90% have failed is ridiculous.. No manufacturer can sustain a 5% failure rate, let alone 90%. Much of the shouting about failure is people jumping on the bandwagon when their tampered with ebay purchase goes wrong within weeks.
I have seen one person insist on buying rrod 360's on ebay over and over looking for the "easy fix".. failing (because they know bugger all about electronics.. can't even fix a van alternator) miserably and then selling it back on ebay.. only 6 months later to buy the exact same console again after it has been messed about with by another 6 people in the meantime.
We are starting to see the first of the ps3's with disk drive failure.. soon the floodgates will open and we will be back in ps2 world all over again.... except this time.. I'm not going to build a heap of them out the back. They don't stack so nice.

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Haha, thanks man. But I'm an Aussie. We is more ignorant than hillbillys here. But we do have Crime Converters. I expect he's checked them out. My old PS2 was bought on the launch day here, he want's it coz he's maaaaaaad. Don't ask me to look on eBay tho. :D

Oner, if you don't want to check out the thread on your own site entitled "PS3 blu-ray drive dead" it's up to you (218 posts and counting). I left a few "I-told-you-so"s there- kidding. There's a number of f*** you $ony written there, but also, great advice on what to do.

Yes it's gonna be bad man, remember I WAS talking about a 3yr period. But I'm sure $ony will fix it after the warranty expires... they're such a nice corporation. :D

I have a whimsical hypothesis about this- they all plan obsolescence into these consoles... M$ just had it dialed up too high...woops.

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 07, 2008 03:44)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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In that article no it tells you the numbers, and MS dose not contest the numbers, and in previous arti9lces has pretty much agreed with them.

There is no doubt that the 360 has had a quarter of its units go bust to question it is to be drinking the "koolaid" out of MSs dck. As far as I have seen or heard from friends and acquaintances some of which repair consoles more than I use to fool with is a mountain compared to what the PS3 might be. Hell MS even did a poor build job on the old Xbox, I'll take lens/drive issues over heat dispensation issues any day!

BTW I say my numbers are up to 30% and looking at the wealth of information and rumors its more than likely true, why else would they go above and beyond to extend the warranty by what 3000%(on a 30 day warranty basis) because they screwed up and its beats being taken to court by an enrage populace.

So please do not even try and down play the disaster of the 360 fail rates, it makes you look more foolish than someone padding them alil.

From my experience owning the 360 its broken for one and I am not the only one to go through 3 or 4 units, the games are mostly "acquired" PC titles with the mass majority of titles being bargain bin crap, its almost suffers from the PS2 being awash in cheap poorly made games only it dose not have as many great titles.

I will say this its gained enough devserity in its titles over the last year or so to make me want to own one again but frankly quality and control options in console games are retarded and I would rather not waste so much money on 5 or 15 games its just not worth the price and I can say this for the PS3 and WII as well I have had them all long enough to more than understand how publishers are having games developed in this short sighted mass disposable world market.

Hell if Halo ep 3 was not...well....Halo ep 3 but a solid and well built FPS like one was I would have kept my 360 crap but good god 8-10 hours of SP time for a 60$ game...no never again will I pay 40+ for a limited and short sighted product.

I might be a crazy and jaded gamer nazi but it beats being a self wanking fanboy every time!

LOL

BTW I am not calling you a fanboy...yet *lick* =^_~=
It comes down to this if you believe the fail rate on the 360 is NOT around a quarter of its total unit sales then you are without a question a raveing fan boy, its as simple as that.

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Nope, no real numbers in that article man, no 30% anyway. M$ agrees there is a problem but disputes the reported extent of it calling it exaggerated etc. Good article anyway. I can read y'know.

Just because I choose to query your lofty omnipotent proclaiments dude, there's no reason to start using the f word. No need to start getting vulgar and going all ad hominem. Threatening to call me a "...raveing (sic) self wanking fanboy...drinking the "koolaid" out of MSs dck" is below the belt, a bit rich and smacks of desperation to me, coz I've been reasonable. But it's understandable considering you choose to cherry-pick and ignore half of what wrote.

Just disregard- "$ony have always had a great track record in producing quality exclusives, better than M$ imo. So I might just end up getting a PS3 in a couple of years or so. It sure won't be 2nd hand tho." and "Realistically, it all comes down to the actual game that you want to play, doesn't it? And that's pretty personal."

I haven't accused you you of being a hypocrite ...yet. (And please don't lick me again man, that's kinda gross.)

Meh, I must be a wannabe fanboy because I've just been into retro and MMORPGing for the last few months since I put the new PC together.

Suggesting that "Hell, MS even did a poor build job on the old Xbox" is patently untrue especially to repairers. That article even doesn't concur with that, it suggests that M$ actually perceived that as a problem- the quality cost them too much. Mine still runs as smooth as silk, of course, it's modded which contributes to it's longevity. But DVD wise it got a thrashing. I did replace it's PSU because of interference present in RGB output (I had a Euro TV) but that was undetectable ordinarily.

For the record, I'll say that, yeah, it seems more like 50% of X360s are RRoDing in the first 3yrs from my anecdotal point of view. But I still maintain that M$ has made the problem far worse with it's crappy replacement returns. But what else would you expect from a greedy grasping corporate octopus. However, you won't find $ony behaving any better.

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 07, 2008 06:39)

Originally posted by Oner:

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The PS3 has an industry average (if not lower) percentage of acceptable failures (as well as the Wii). There is absolutely no proof to your opinion of the PS3 having a wide scale problem.

I have a launch day Fat PS2 that is STILL working as well as know a few family members with theirs still working. You cannot compare the PS2 fail rates to the 360's

Quote:

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the PS2's failure %'s where still within an acceptable industry standard. The only reason why it "seemed" like a lot is because

2-3% of 125 Million is 2.5-3.75 Million ~ PS2

33+% of 20 Million is 6.6 Million+ ~ 360

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Also why would you only state PS3 giveaways when M$ have done & allowed absolutely the same Mitsubishi WD-73736 DLP HDTV, Microsoft Xbox 360 Pro 60GB System (Bundle) amongst other well documented promotions?

In reference to your earlier reply about GTA4 on PS3

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The upshot was that the res and the framerate are ended up lower on the PS3.

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While that is true the consensus is the PS3 version plays and still looks better at a slightly lower resolution; this coupled with the 360's pop in issue & load times just confirms it.

But we are getting off topic (here and there) so please feel free to reply but we really should discuss off topic stuff elsewhere.

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Sorry to respond to these posts individually- I don't know the trick of adding the quotes together (noob!).

Yes, no proof, coz I didn't say "of the PS3 having a wide scale problem", I said it will have. Over a 3 yr period and certainly after the warranty expires. The opinion I expressed was one of foreboding. I gave my reasons why, and they're fair. Apart from drawing a parallel between the drive construction of the PS2 and the PS3, there is another thing... All the PS3s coming into the shop for laser assembly problems (about 3 per week now) are overseas models. They were bought OS early because the PS3 has hardly been sold in Australia for a year, also their warranty btw is not honored in this country. Now that's a lot for small town Adelaide, South Aust, a tiny percentage of the locally bought PS3s here. Especially considering that most Joe Blow PS3 owners don't even know they can have their console repaired independent of $ony. And we ain't the only specialist console repair shop in this burg either. So the problem is either universal or just with the OS models bought here from Honk Kong, Japan, States, Europe, Singapore, China, wherever. Maybe the units can't tolerate domestic air travel, but I think it's a pretty fair world sampling that can't be shoved under the carpet (because of Australia's very late introduction to locally sold units).

I believe I am in a position to compare the PS2 fail rates to the 360's factoring in a 3yr period. I didn't say it would be as bad but it won't be good... at all. At least it's not an unfixable problem and we're not quite as expensive as $ony. We offer a 3 month guarantee on our work but it still ain't cheap. There's the high failure rate of replacement parts too.

I'm genuinely impressed you have a fair use working non-repaired launch day PS2 Oner and that you know of a few others. In fact I am quite staggered. But I have to to say, that's honestly the first I've ever heard of. As I said, my ver3 was something of a record at the shop. My ver7 replacement has a HDD fitted in the effort to stave of the inevitable. (Btw, does yours have an HDD fitted?)

I believe the figures you quote but fail to reference apply to the first year only... not three.

I failed to mention the Xbox TV bundles because the $ony ones are way prevalent, at least in this country, But perhaps your right, I should have. The point being the figures are muddied by all sorts of factors. But it would be naive to think that $ony would not pad out their numbers as well. Amyway, it was a genuine question not just a rhetorical setup.

I'll take your word for the consensus concerning GTA IV on the PS3, I know there are pop in issues on the X360. I naturally fail to see how a lower res would look better tho- I always preferred to to play my games in PAL if I could despite the 50hz coz of the extra 20% (about) res. but with some I just couldn't because of frame tearing, a result of poor conversion... Spider Man and Ninja Gaiden off the top of my head. So I'm picky I suppose.

Comment by: Oner (Oct 07, 2008 16:30)

I cannot understand how you beleive this supposed BD drive issue is anything of concern? You cannot compare 1 thread on 1 site to hundreds and thousands on here & everywhere else that are absolutely rampant. Now that's not to say there aren't any other sites that don't post about PS3 failures but the point remains it is absolutely no where near similar in scale!

As for the figures they are for what counts. Totals. Not a partial time period to compare to another time period as that is not giving the whole proper picture. It would be biased to try and compare a "this time to this time" as that is not giving the whole truth/story. But I can understand where you are trying to get at. But what you are touting is at what MAY be not what is.

You stated you have a whimsical hypothesis about this; and it is exactly that, because a hypothesis without substantiating proof on a whole can only be taken as whimsical :). Either way the bottom line is (back on topic) I do hope the 360 does well (at least for a little longer) so as to keep the competitiveness tight within console gaming.

My only gripe with M$ has always been the fact I don't like their hardware faults and how EVERYONE involved gets screwed. Because this affects 2 separate areas.

1) RROD hardware problems hurts 360 owners

2) DL DVD's impacts the 360 because of shorter games, compression + more ways to charge for downloadable content that should have been included (for $60 a pop especially) as well as those same issues apply to the PS3 owners for whatever multiplatform games that port over (not for graphics problems as that is a separate issue tied to the devs when it comes to experience & time when programming)

Edit: I have to add that I have really enjoyed these discussions. It's nice for a change to T A L K about a topic without it always reverting to Wah Wah Wah DRM, Sony, the bpi, or whatever only to somehow regress to personal insults....even if the topic has slightly skewed from the originating news it has been a proper conversation. Cheers.

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Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 08, 2008 10:02)

Originally posted by Oner:

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I cannot understand how you beleive this supposed BD drive issue is anything of concern? You cannot compare 1 thread on 1 site to hundreds and thousands on here & everywhere else that are absolutely rampant. Now that's not to say there aren't any other sites that don't post about PS3 failures but the point remains it is absolutely no where near similar in scale!

As for the figures they are for what counts. Totals. Not a partial time period to compare to another time period as that is not giving the whole proper picture. It would be biased to try and compare a "this time to this time" as that is not giving the whole truth/story. But I can understand where you are trying to get at. But what you are touting is at what MAY be not what is.

You stated you have a whimsical hypothesis about this; and it is exactly that, because a hypothesis without substantiating proof on a whole can only be taken as whimsical :). Either way the bottom line is (back on topic) I do hope the 360 does well (at least for a little longer) so as to keep the competitiveness tight within console gaming.

My only gripe with M$ has always been the fact I don't like their hardware faults and how EVERYONE involved gets screwed. Because this affects 2 separate areas.

1) RROD hardware problems hurts 360 owners

2) DL DVD's impacts the 360 because of shorter games, compression + more ways to charge for downloadable content that should have been included (for $60 a pop especially) as well as those same issues apply to the PS3 owners for whatever multiplatform games that port over (not for graphics problems as that is a separate issue tied to the devs when it comes to experience & time when programming)

Edit: I have to add that I have really enjoyed these discussions. It's nice for a change to T A L K about a topic without it always reverting to Wah Wah Wah DRM, Sony, the bpi, or whatever only to somehow regress to personal insults....even if the topic has slightly skewed from the originating news it has been a proper conversation. Cheers.

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Thanks Oner, appreciate that. I suppose as a moderator you might get this thread shifted to off-topic, if you so choose. But it might be it's saving grace. :D Gad, this thread has cost me valuable gaming time :)

If you can't understand by now why I might have a point about the PS3's high potential for a BluRay-of-Death then I don't what else I can write. All I can do is say I'm not the only one who gets it. I point to the above post by Varnull-

Originally posted by varnull:

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We are starting to see the first of the ps3's with disk drive failure.. soon the floodgates will open and we will be back in ps2 world all over again....

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If what you mean by "totals" is all PS2s sold up until this moment. 98-97% of PS2s EVER sold are STILL functioning without repair, sorry man, I just think that's just plain false. I had a good TV bought during that period and after several repairs even that's bit the dust by now. The "acceptable industry standard" refers to the first year warranty period only according to my knowledge, they use that to factor in returns.

The 3yr period I choose for comparison logically is because that is the period M$ cover for the RRoD (not for anything else mind you).

"whimsical hypothesis"... hey, I called it first! :D It was a JOKE Oner, c'on. J-O-K-E y'know... haha! :D That's why I wrote "whimsical hypothesis" *oh for cripes sake!*

BTW "substantiating proof" shifts hypothesis to theory- know your philosophy of science! All hypothesis are whimsy on some level or "educated guesses" at best.

The necessity for BluRay (or even HD-DVD) to improve gaming at this stage of the game is grossly exaggerated. Of far more importance to the multiplatform games issue is general instruction multi-core processing, of which I'll go into in the next post (along with others of Zippy's blue-sky dreaming).

Decompression of data on the X360 and the Xbox1 is handled in hardware... by the time it takes to load up into RAM from optical it's virtually there.

With the release of the Nov update loading times and noise won't be so much of an issue, if you have an X360 HDD. It may even help deal with the pop-in issues in GTA IV- since that is a game which loads on-the-fly.

Originally posted by Oner:

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While the 360's "graphics card" (Xenos) in itself may be more powerful than the PS3's "graphics card" (RSX) you omit the fact that the Cell HELPS in this area so in the end it is the other way around...well, if utilized properly that is ;).

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Sorry, one of these days it might help a little but hardware rendering will always trump software in terms of speed and you forget the bottleneck issues of the PS3. The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend to "utilize properly" in your terms the PS3's configuration showed it's head in GTA IV. It's also gonna suck up more of the PS3's single GI core's time too regardless of FLOP speed.

Comment by: Oner (Oct 08, 2008 13:38)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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If you can't understand by now why I might have a point about the PS3's high potential for a BluRay-of-Death then I don't what else I can write. All I can do is say I'm not the only one who gets it. I point to the above post by Varnull-

Originally posted by varnull:

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We are starting to see the first of the ps3's with disk drive failure.. soon the floodgates will open and we will be back in ps2 world all over again....

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If what you mean by "totals" is all PS2s sold up until this moment. 98-97% of PS2s EVER sold are STILL functioning without repair, sorry man, I just think that's just plain false....

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A few posts about BD drive problems does not indicate a "high potential". That is all I have said which is indicative of the state of things right now. Not presumptions, not forecasts, not probables and definitely nothing about PS2's lasting forever or anything else.

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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"whimsical hypothesis"... hey, I called it first! :D It was a JOKE Oner, c'on. J-O-K-E y'know... haha! :D That's why I wrote "whimsical hypothesis" *oh for cripes sake!*

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I understood it as a joke but, I think the issue here is that the web can be impersonal. Hell, I even put a smilie to show mine was a joke back! NP though.

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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The necessity for BluRay (or even HD-DVD) to improve gaming at this stage of the game is grossly exaggerated.

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Not according to the information that devs say and beleive. Why would they want to limit creativity because of a disc size issue? Now if a game does not fill up a BD then no big deal but to have the ability without issue is better for all devs creations & imagination to make more expansive (and hopefully less "pay for additional downloadable content" BS that should have been in the game to begin with so they get to double, triple etc. dip!).

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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With the release of the Nov update loading times and noise won't be so much of an issue, if you have an X360 HDD. It may even help deal with the pop-in issues in GTA IV- since that is a game which loads on-the-fly.

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I hope it does address these issues but what I find funny is how M$ & other "supporters" (to use a friendly term) tout that kind of feature was not needed (as well as HDMI, 1080p, HD-DVD etc.) and fault the other company for having them @ day 1. A bit hypocritical and just plain biased but that is neither here nor there as stuff like that will always be...

Originally posted by Jemborg:

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Sorry, one of these days it might help a little but hardware rendering will always trump software in terms of speed and you forget the bottleneck issues of the PS3. The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend to "utilize properly" in your terms the PS3's configuration showed it's head in GTA IV. It's also gonna suck up more of the PS3's single GI core's time too regardless of FLOP speed.

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I look at it like this. With the introduction of the PS1 people complained about it's architecture and how to use it and blah blah blah, then the same with the PS2 and then lookie what we have again with the PS3. So while I definitely agree with a lot of your points they are a bit misplaced in some of it's factors. I.E. GTA4, as I have heard the same amount of backlash but against the 360 version (disc size limiting graphics and content, only being able to stream etc.) so it is a double sided sword either way ;). Also with new technology there will be some (more like most as usual) that will just absolutely "hate" it because of a few things.

Quote:

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1) Fear of something new ~ which forces people to do more. In my opinion that's good as there is no stagnation and comfortability to slack off.

2) Not understanding how it can apply/better/optimize other areas when used properly ~ that is going to happen in the beginning but the end result in the long run is so much better. Look at how things are progressing at only the 2nd year of dev time with the PS3 in it's life cycle in comparison to the 360 which on all accounts has been almost maxed out for almost a year or so! When you look at Gears 1 it SOOOO outshines Halo 3 but then you look at Gears 2 and while it looks absolutely great it is not much "more". But contrast that to the PS3 and titles like R1 to R2, Ratchet & Clank (just in terms of quality), GT5P and how it look now just being a prologue not to mention KZ2 (only using 4 spe's or something like 60% of the "power" from my understanding) well you see where I am going...

3) Tools ~ since it is so new there aren't or there are very few tools of which that help alleviate the programming & creation process. But this has been addressed this time around with the Dev network Sony has in place. I may have it backwards but I remember reading something in the order of how Insomniac was able to help Guerrilla (or was it Naughty Dog?) in some water effects or something like that, whatever. The point being is that, either way with time comes additional channels of being able to address these issues which will help improve and optimize production.

---

So while you are right that "The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend" is an issue. I beleive that is what expect them to do & deal with when we buy a $60 game!

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Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 08, 2008 18:03)

Originally posted by Oner:

---

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

If you can't understand by now why I might have a point about the PS3's high potential for a BluRay-of-Death then I don't what else I can write. All I can do is say I'm not the only one who gets it. I point to the above post by Varnull-

Originally posted by varnull:

---

We are starting to see the first of the ps3's with disk drive failure.. soon the floodgates will open and we will be back in ps2 world all over again....

---

If what you mean by "totals" is all PS2s sold up until this moment. 98-97% of PS2s EVER sold are STILL functioning without repair, sorry man, I just think that's just plain false....

---

A few posts about BD drive problems does not indicate a "high potential". That is all I have said which is indicative of the state of things right now. Not presumptions, not forecasts, not probables and definitely nothing about PS2's lasting forever or anything else.

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

"whimsical hypothesis"... hey, I called it first! :D It was a JOKE Oner, c'on. J-O-K-E y'know... haha! :D That's why I wrote "whimsical hypothesis" *oh for cripes sake!*

---

I understood it as a joke but, I think the issue here is that the web can be impersonal. Hell, I even put a smilie to show mine was a joke back! NP though.

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

The necessity for BluRay (or even HD-DVD) to improve gaming at this stage of the game is grossly exaggerated.

---

Not according to the information that devs say and beleive. Why would they want to limit creativity because of a disc size issue? Now if a game does not fill up a BD then no big deal but to have the ability without issue is better for all devs creations & imagination to make more expansive (and hopefully less "pay for additional downloadable content" BS that should have been in the game to begin with so they get to double, triple etc. dip!).

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

With the release of the Nov update loading times and noise won't be so much of an issue, if you have an X360 HDD. It may even help deal with the pop-in issues in GTA IV- since that is a game which loads on-the-fly.

---

I hope it does address these issues but what I find funny is how M$ & other "supporters" (to use a friendly term) tout that kind of feature was not needed (as well as HDMI, 1080p, HD-DVD etc.) and fault the other company for having them @ day 1. A bit hypocritical and just plain biased but that is neither here nor there as stuff like that will always be...

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

Sorry, one of these days it might help a little but hardware rendering will always trump software in terms of speed and you forget the bottleneck issues of the PS3. The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend to "utilize properly" in your terms the PS3's configuration showed it's head in GTA IV. It's also gonna suck up more of the PS3's single GI core's time too regardless of FLOP speed.

---

I look at it like this. With the introduction of the PS1 people complained about it's architecture and how to use it and blah blah blah, then the same with the PS2 and then lookie what we have again with the PS3. So while I definitely agree with a lot of your points they are a bit misplaced in some of it's factors. I.E. GTA4, as I have heard the same amount of backlash but against the 360 version (disc size limiting graphics and content, only being able to stream etc.) so it is a double sided sword either way ;). Also with new technology there will be some (more like most as usual) that will just absolutely "hate" it because of a few things.

Quote:

---

1) Fear of something new ~ which forces people to do more. In my opinion that's good as there is no stagnation and comfortability to slack off.

2) Not understanding how it can apply/better/optimize other areas when used properly ~ that is going to happen in the beginning but the end result in the long run is so much better. Look at how things are progressing at only the 2nd year of dev time with the PS3 in it's life cycle in comparison to the 360 which on all accounts has been almost maxed out for almost a year or so! When you look at Gears 1 it SOOOO outshines Halo 3 but then you look at Gears 2 and while it looks absolutely great it is not much "more". But contrast that to the PS3 and titles like R1 to R2, Ratchet & Clank (just in terms of quality), GT5P and how it look now just being a prologue not to mention KZ2 (only using 4 spe's or something like 60% of the "power" from my understanding) well you see where I am going...

3) Tools ~ since it is so new there aren't or there are very few tools of which that help alleviate the programming & creation process. But this has been addressed this time around with the Dev network Sony has in place. I may have it backwards but I remember reading something in the order of how Insomniac was able to help Guerrilla (or was it Naughty Dog?) in some water effects or something like that, whatever. The point being is that, either way with time comes additional channels of being able to address these issues which will help improve and optimize production.

---

So while you are right that "The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend" is an issue. I beleive that is what expect them to do & deal with when we buy a $60 game!

---

I'm always kind of heartened nowadays when only select bits of my posts are challenged. It means to me a tacit agreement to the unmentioned points.

Now you know I've mentioned more than just a few (?) posts in the growing "PS3 blu-ray drive dead" thread. I believe my opinion has good foundations and I've stated plenty. I thought so for quite a while now, ever since that first smashed up PS3 came into the shop and I got a good look at it. Everything I've seen since has just borne that out. But I must point out that whist it may not be great for PS3 owners it sure is for my repair business. :D

"I understood it as a joke but, I think the issue here is that the web can be impersonal." ??? Sorry, I just thought you felt the need to be patronising. :) {<smiley face}.

Can you give me a link to where the Devs say and believe there is a (perhaps urgent) creative necessity for greater optical disc space on the X360? It's not that I don't believe you, it's just the first I've heard of it. Btw, I hate the downloadable content thing myself, but I've heard of it in reference to GT4 too.

"I hope it does address these issues but what I find funny is how M$ & other "supporters" (to use a friendly term) tout that kind of feature was not needed (as well as HDMI, 1080p, HD-DVD etc.) and fault the other company for having them @ day 1. A bit hypocritical and just plain biased..." Yeah true, kinda reminds you of how we were told again and again about how vibration wasn't needed or worth it in the PS3 controllers anymore by OPSM and other "supporters". Are DualShock3s standard when you buy a new PS3 now, I forget?

To the rest of your comments...

The brilliant work done by developers on the PS1 and PS2 is a testament to the art of programming rather than the machines themselves. Done in spite of rather than because of. Did it contribute to the creative process of game making? Not according to the creator of Metal Gear Solid. His comments in reference to MGS2 were that he would have liked to have done a lot more. God of War Two was not a huge improvement software design-wise over GOW1 (both bloody great fun) and they would have run easily on the Xbox1 (I'm looking to the future here).

(Where did you get those quotes from anyway?)

"So while you are right that "The time, trouble and money that game programmers/developers have to spend" is an issue. I beleive that is what expect them to do & deal with when we buy a $60 game!" Thank god we agree on something- but you sure take a hard-line on independent struggling not-so-well-off production houses who might give us something more than just another bloody sequel.

Did you know that PS3 games are $110-120 here? 360 games are $10 cheaper.

Since you talked of consensus before Oner... perhaps we should ask ourselves how many of the quality games you mentioned on the PS3 as opposed to the X360 are exclusives? The consensus on the sites I frequent, including http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/ or http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/Board.aspx?b=59 seem pretty down on them generally (much to my surprise really).

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 08, 2008 18:06)

Jemborg
The problem is the PS3 is just more powerful than the 360 but has currently slow software you are over underestimating the power of the PS3 and trumping up the aging 360.

With at least 2 tweaks the 360 would easily match the PS3 and yes that means BR drive the other would be more ramm for newer games, have it programed to alow more stuff on more ramm less on less ramm as you can get the games out on all the units.

Altho I have to wonder with BD as it is when media(games,software,ect) moves to it in 5+ years will software be ready for parallel processing or will we have more optimized/refined stuff based on what we have now. mmmmmm



Oner
I know FF loaded game chartz all wrong I thought the 3XM/2XM was the 360/ps3 is not, my apologies for talking out the ass :P

When do you think the PS3 will come in 2M -/+ of the 360 by summer or fall 09?
(am I replying to an old post? mew bwains are not working this morning!!)

Comment by: Oner (Oct 08, 2008 19:24)

I guess it all comes down to how it's looked at either way (on all our different subjects) but I can't agree that there will be an issue with BD lasers. If it does prove to be an issue in time then I would agree but there is none to be found at all as it stands.

I've never been to those sites, but I peruse at least 10-15 different ones and then see what references/links they go to before coming to my own understanding (rather than going with as an example say Kotaku's usual bias headline and news for hit counts ~ pro one/neg the other 95% of the time).



Zippy, NP it happens. No one is perfect ;) As for a guess...I dunno man, I've been right on my previous estimates up until this point but I honestly think with the worldwide economy factor being what it is, it can't be good all around. Plus the additional stuff like the 360 price drop but yet it's Euro & Asian market penetration being absolutely stalled, Wii's absolute dominance for casuals, HDTV's constant growth in sales, the US digital switch over in Feb etc. and many other things....including HUGE titles like R2, LBP & KZ2/GT5 coming soon damn! I am at that point where it's at wait and see how Christmas goes. But then again a lot can happen economy wise (stocks fluctuating, Dow being down consistently, job losses/unemployment, housing market, banks closing) but yet home entertainment seems to be holding steady? Shit man I am just confusing myself even more talking about it now! lol.

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Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 08, 2008 19:40)

Originally posted by Oner:

---

I guess it all comes down to how it's looked at either way (on all our different subjects) but I can't agree that there will be an issue with BD lasers. If it does prove to be an issue in time then I would agree but there is none to be found at all as it stands.

I've never been to those sites, but I peruse at least 10-15 different ones and then see what references/links they go to before coming to my own understanding (rather than going with as an example say Kotaku's usual bias headline and news for hit counts ~ pro one/neg the other 95% of the time).



Zippy, NP it happens. No one is perfect ;) As for a guess...I dunno man, I've been right on my previous estimates up until this point but I honestly think with the worldwide economy factor being what it is, it can't be good all around. Plus the additional stuff like the 360 price drop but yet it's Euro & Asian market penetration being absolutely stalled, Wii's absolute dominance for casuals, HDTV's constant growth in sales, the US digital switch over in Feb etc. and many other things....including HUGE titles like R2, LBP & KZ2/GT5 coming soon damn! I am at that point where it's at wait and see how Christmas goes. But then again a lot can happen economy wise (stocks fluctuating, Dow being down consistently, job losses/unemployment, housing market, banks closing) but yet home entertainment seems to be holding steady? Shit man I am just confusing myself even more talking about it now! lol.

---

Well I might be dismissive of 360 and PS3 the WII has more than proven itself, but both have issues moving forward the PS3 has price issues thats going to stall its assent by years the BWC is an issue to me, the 360 is just a wreck its like a pop start that has talent but is in out of rehab I'd like to see it clean itself up and become a better console.

But besides the pure console issues I am looking at modern gaming and become more and more disgusted by its rushed and wanked products on to get it to market ASAP and whats worse a well sold game like Bioshock still can not get fixes for the PC version.... I am just getting fed up with it..

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 08, 2008 22:02)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

---

Jemborg
The problem is the PS3 is just more powerful than the 360 but has currently slow software you are over underestimating the power of the PS3 and trumping up the aging 360.

---

Gaaah, there you go again with your unsubstantiated all-sweeping pronouncements. I might be offended if they weren't so funny.

Zippy, the Cell CPU is a great little number cruncher, agreed. In fact on advising my my mate on building his new render farm I suggested we use PS3s, he can always whack more on should he feel like it.

But as far as gaming (and it's future) is concerned it's a different kettle of smeg. The X360s CPU has 3 general purpose cores each running two threads (and a contiguous 512mb memory wholly accessible by both it and the more powerful GPU) as opposed to the Cell's one (PS3's 512mb RAM is halved between the CPU and GPU).

YOU underestimate the importance of multicore game code and it's relevance. To illustrate...

http://www.gameklip.net/video/1606

Quote:

---

We of course asked the obvious question: would game developers rather have 3 slow general purpose cores, or one of those cores paired with an array of specialized SPEs? The response was unanimous, everyone we have spoken to would rather take the general purpose core approach.

Citing everything from ease of programming to the limitations of the SPEs we mentioned previously, the Xbox 360 appears to be the more developer-friendly of the two platforms according to the cross-platform developers we've spoken to.

---

Rather than the X360s lack of a BR drive or more memory (which just ain't gonna happen- and you know that) that's holding back cross-platform development (and we all suffer here) it's the lack of GI multi-cores in the Cell.

Sure the PS3 code compilers will improve in time (you'd bloody hope so) but if you think that the 360's won't either in terms of optimization and research then you are barking mad. Whether one will surpass the other will depend on the overall configuration of the hardware not on a single component. I have my PC's CPU overclocked by 40% and it still can't take full advantage of it's RAMs bandwidth.

Btw here's some links on redoing the X360 HD-
http://www.consolecommunity.com/xbox-360...rive-cheap.html
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEyAZlukkkkGLVUagB.php
http://360.xbox-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-17.html
http://www.360-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-64.html

Sure the PS3 will produce some awesome games... sometime. Most hopefully in terms of overall gameplay which is something that seems to have been lost here. Till then I'll wait, there seems to be no point in getting one now, in terms of games and especially in terms of it's mediocre HD movie reproduction.

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 08, 2008 22:11)

Originally posted by Oner:

---

I guess it all comes down to how it's looked at either way (on all our different subjects) but I can't agree that there will be an issue with BD lasers. If it does prove to be an issue in time then I would agree but there is none to be found at all as it stands.

I've never been to those sites, but I peruse at least 10-15 different ones and then see what references/links they go to before coming to my own understanding (rather than going with as an example say Kotaku's usual bias headline and news for hit counts ~ pro one/neg the other 95% of the time).

---

"...there is none to be found at all as it stands..." ROFL what-eva. :D

Actually it's one site, the second link is to it's forum. I'm just giving a plug. ;)

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 08, 2008 22:35)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

---

Jemborg
The problem is the PS3 is just more powerful than the 360 but has currently slow software you are over underestimating the power of the PS3 and trumping up the aging 360.

---

Gaaah, there you go again with your unsubstantiated all-sweeping pronouncements. I might be offended if they weren't so funny.

Zippy, the Cell CPU is a great little number cruncher, agreed. In fact on advising my my mate on building his new render farm I suggested we use PS3s, he can always whack more on should he feel like it.

But as far as gaming (and it's future) is concerned it's a different kettle of smeg. The X360s CPU has 3 general purpose cores each running two threads (and a contiguous 512mb memory wholly accessible by both it and the more powerful GPU) as opposed to the Cell's one (PS3's 512mb RAM is halved between the CPU and GPU).

YOU underestimate the importance of multicore game code and it's relevance. To illustrate...

Alan Wake on the subject- http://www.gameklip.net/video/1606

Quote:

---

We of course asked the obvious question: would game developers rather have 3 slow general purpose cores, or one of those cores paired with an array of specialized SPEs? The response was unanimous, everyone we have spoken to would rather take the general purpose core approach.

Citing everything from ease of programming to the limitations of the SPEs we mentioned previously, the Xbox 360 appears to be the more developer-friendly of the two platforms according to the cross-platform developers we've spoken to.

---

Rather than the X360s lack of a BR drive or more memory (which just ain't gonna happen- and you know that) that's holding back cross-platform development (and we all suffer here) it's the lack of GI multi-cores in the Cell.

Sure the PS3 code compilers will improve in time (you'd bloody hope so) but if you think that the 360's won't either in terms of optimization and research then you are barking mad. Whether one will surpass the other will depend on the overall configuration of the hardware not on a single component. I have my PC's CPU overclocked by 40% and it still can't take full advantage of it's RAMs bandwidth.

Sure the PS3 will produce some awesome games... sometime. Most hopefully in terms of overall gameplay which is something that seems to have been lost here. Till then I'll wait, there seems to be no point in getting one now, in terms of games and especially in terms of it's mediocre HD movie reproduction.

---

Ya ya ya if the PS3 did not look better and sometimes preform better I would believe you, unfortunately for you the 360 is slightly antiquated and held down by locked HDD and DL dvds that simply do not allow it to keep up appearances for the coming years.

In some ways its like the PS2(360) vrs the GC(ps3) but if the GC had more consumer support. At the rate the PS3 is pushing units and games it will surpass the 360 in sales this is pretty much fact unless MS is willing to go 99 which I think the arcade is only worth 100-150 the premium is only worth 200 but not more than that and so much more if they want to keep momentum up.

The PS3 has issues but its potential and momentum are simply higher than the 360 which has been hampered by technical difficulties far more than the PS3..

The 360 has done greatly but it can not maintain 2nd place because of all it's fault, don't forget the only thing holding the PS3 back sales wise is price and I say this since the both the 360 and WII can sale well on mostly crappy titles the only thing preventing the PS3 taking the 360 out of 2nd place is price.

Should be interesting to see what happens when they go down 100$ the PS3 will gain a tidal wave of momentum and the 360 will get enough waves to surf on until its crushed by the tsunami(put into 3rd place).

I mean come on would not the 360 revamping itself do wonders for them and the 7th generation? If they unlocked the HDD, put in a BR drive and not change the price? I think it would boost sales 20-30% and change the ball game all together at the rate things are going without a focused effort to revamp the 360 its doomed to fade before the end of the 7th generation..

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 08, 2008 22:55)

Zip if you say it mate it must be true. LOL

Since 87% of folks get a PS3 for watching movies- $ony's figures- I wonder how that will go down for it's game dev.

But let's face it, that's the REAL reason why they put in a BluRay player. Not for us gamers.

Btw here's some links on redoing the X360 HD-
http://www.consolecommunity.com/xbox-360...rive-cheap.html
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEyAZlukkkkGLVUagB.php
http://360.xbox-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-17.html
http://www.360-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-64.html

Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 08, 2008 23:26)

Originally posted by Jemborg:

---

Zip if you say it mate it must be true. LOL

Since 87% of folks get a PS3 for watching movies- $ony's figures- I wonder how that will go down for it's game dev.

But let's face it, that's the REAL reason why they put in a BluRay player. Not for us gamers.

Btw here's some links on redoing the X360 HD-
http://www.consolecommunity.com/xbox-360...rive-cheap.html
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEyAZlukkkkGLVUagB.php
http://360.xbox-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-17.html
http://www.360-hq.com/xbox-tutorials-64.html

---

YA ya ya its called forward thinking the opposite of the 360 and is HDD and the late coming HDMIplug, however if they do not do something about price they are screwed

Comment by: Oner (Oct 09, 2008 00:08)

I think you need to read through this Jemborg

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/g...re-in-depth.ars

As well as this one about the "supposed" bottlenecks

http://talkplaystation.com/ps3s-ram-and-rsx-explained/


I don't take any credit for the below but it's a quote taken from beyond3d I came across a while ago

Quote:

---

Taken from beyond3d:

In Lost Planet, each character is 10-20K polys. A VS robot is 30-40K polys. A background is about 500K. With shadows and other hidden rendering cost, it's about 3 million polys per frame.

Different platforms require different care, would not be surprised if ppl working on 360 and suddenly dropping their datasets onto RSX would not observe good numbers (and viceversa)
Now..I can't see how RSX, if used in the right way, should be so limited at vertex processing: in HS we easily render 2-2.5 MTriangles per frame at 30 fps without being VS limited and without making any use of CELL to speed up vertex shading and I know for sure that being more clever we could even go faster..(just using the GPU)

The numbers quoted about HS are slighty wrong..cause a few days a go I realized there's a bug in the code that computes the triangle count: in some cases it's more close to 3M triangles per frame mark than 2M.

Regarding cpu, yes its totally different arguments. The 360's is a very standard setup, a bunch of cores that can all see main memory. The advantage to this is that lots of thread coded written over the years can be ported to it easily. For example, Valve (the Half Life guys) are writing an entirely threaded engine for the PC. When it's done, porting it to the 360 will be easy. How about porting it to the PS3? Nope, won't work, it's a totally different setup. The PS3's main core is basically the same, but its spu's can't see main memory. Each one has 256k that it can work with, so you need to rewrite your code to pack things into 256k chunks, feed it to the spu's to process it, then copy it all back to main memory. In other words, you've gotta rewrite your code.

Now before I get jumped on here let me briefly mention the downsides. The 360's cpu setup is painfully easy to code for. But, they really aren't all that fast. Worse yet, all three cores use the same memory controller so the three cores are not three times the power of the one core on the PS3 due to some overhead. The PS3's spu's on the other hand are monstrously fast. You need to setup your data correctly to work with them, but once thats done then yes, the 360's cpu setup is crap compared to fully working spu's. I say fully working because most current games out there barely even touch on them, it will take time to re-write everything.

============================= ================

MOST games use 90-180 mln. polys per second, since using more you won`t have stable framerate.

300 mln. polys per second is ENOUGH for this gen.
That is 10 mln. with 30fps or 5 mln. with 60fps. And again, Lost Planet only 3 mln. with 30fps.

============================= ================
"The game was originally designed to run at 60 frames per second at 720p, but it caused drops in the framerate.

The proof of this is the fact that Call of Duty 4 runs at a resolution of only 640p on both the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3."
LoLz, then x360 version should be run at 720p IF it would depend ONLY on polys count. BUT it depend also on PROCESSING power, where x360 is WEAK.

---

And another really good post by aliveinboston on N4G

Quote:

---

Compare polygon heavy console exclusive games that are optimized for the hardware (unlike multiplatform games) for which we know the numbers. These are the theoretical peak polygons being processed for the cars on track in the following racing games.

PGR4: 100,000 per car x 12 cars x 30fps = 36M per second
GT5: 200,000 per car x 16 cars x 60fps = 192M per second

Anyone who has seen both games will tell you the GT5 cars really do look that much better. Add another 2M/frame each for the environments and youre look at well over 200M for GT5 and over 50M for PGR4. That's about 4-5 times the performance.

What about resolution in a game with similar shader load?

PGR4: 1280x720 x 30fps = 27.7M per second
GT5: 1280x1080 x 60fps = 82.8M per second

GT5 is churning out more than 2.5 times as many pixels under a similar per pixel shader load. Thats more than 150% more performance!

Again, anyone who's seen the games side by side will tell you GT5 really does look that much sharper and cleaner.

Just goes to show that when a game is optimized for the PS3, it will significantly outperform a game that has been optimized for the XBox360.

Unfortunately, COD4 was made for the XBox360 and ported to the PS3 with minimal resources applied. This is typical of multi-platform games this generation because the XBox360 was released first and therefore has a larger number of existing customers. However, now that the PS3 is outselling it by a large margin developer attitudes are also changing.....

~In another post~

The most amazing thing about this whole killzone issue is how everyone pretends to be blind.
Yeah, im glad this article brought us back to how it WAS when the CGI trailer was released. EVERYONE, and i mean EVERYONE was on the "bwhahahah cgi that isn't realtime" trip. Because people felt that sony was lying about their oh so powerful hardware.

Now GG (Guerrilla Games) has completely shut down everyone. There is no denying that Killzone2 is THE most amazing FPS consoles have seen strictly from a visual standpoint. Even gamesrader/eurogamer can try to deny it all they want. IGN/Gamespot/Non traditional gaming media/ OUR OWN EYES confirms gamesradar/eurogamer as just bs fanboys digging for problems. THe second to none lighting/texture shader detail/post processing/ depth of field / OBJECT motion BLur/ Scale is second to none. And we have just seen 1 stupid level.

The one thing I hate to see, is that now that the graphics results are in, Gamesradar and Eurogamer are now trying to go after something else. They cant complain that the visuals aren't good because it doesn't stand up. When these sites have no problems giving Halo3 and COD4 AAA scores and overlooking mistakes, yet get hung up on Killzone2, its bs. All of the deep digging reasons that they have listed for Killzone2 applies to Halo3/Cod4, every single last one of them. The main reason for these sites sticking to their critical GUNS is because they were there along with everyone else condemning sony for lying about 4d killzone2 and toy story visuals. It doesn't seem that they can move on and give an amazing developer credit for pulling off such amazing visuals on a single console. So now they are trying to attack the gameplay?

Did anyone here actually PLAY halo3 and cod4? Halo3 had a short single player, it was fun. The online is great. And that sums up Halo3's contribution to the FPS genre. COD4 had a great SHORT single player campaign, which was linear(just like halo3) on maps where there is only 1 way to go ultimately to progress.The AI in COD4 was completely terrible. I dont think the AI was even programmed. They both share good visuals, as they both share SUB HD resolutions. COD4 has Halo3 beat when it comes to online features and just pure fun. Its variations in modes and rank really stand out for console games, and is a great contribution to the genre.

Now killzone2 comes along, and what does it show? The game reminds me completely of COD4 and other FPS's that have previously come before it. There isn't much variation you can get when the camera is locked at 1 pov. You get guns, and enemies. The only thing that differs from FPS to FPS are the little gimicks developers put in. Cool shield here, Cool shield there, Cover system, and multiplayer features. Killzone 2 has all of those prerequisites, and if you saw that STAT screen GG definitely is taking the multiplayer aspect of this game very seriously, Classes, Ranking, Combine Badges for different weapons and skillsets. If any of Killzone2's features were in COD4 it would be heavily praised. If Killzone2's visuals were in COD4 it would be universally accepted as one amazing FPS. Neither halo3 or COD4 innovated anything for the FPS genre. Everything we see has been already done on the PC, and better. The FPS as a genre is mainly the pickup and play games of choice. We are good at them because we have all been playing the same type of game since wolfenstein. But its not going to be that easy for this title. Killzone2 looks to be a great addition to the generic world of the FPS genre. Polished Visuals, Polished AI, Polished Gameplay, and Online is all that is required for AAA status these days. Again, why is this different for Killzone2? Accepting Killzone2 as a good FPS that should stand along the ranks of the other FPS and above for visual achievement is going to me hard for the media that threw the title under the bus.

Giving Killzone2 a passing grade for the exact same reasons Eurogamer/Gamesradar/Anyone gave Halo3 and COD4 will mean that ultimately, those gaming sites have to take a slice of humble pie, and admit that they judged the game on a CGI trailer a little too early, and that the visuals were in fact possible. Because outside of Visuals, all you have in an FPS. Which everyone has been perfectly fine with, until KZ2 showed up, showed that it is in fact real, and showed that it will be a great game.

Read this http://whatifgaming.com/whatifgaming-e30...ew-insuperable, and tell me that Killzone2 sounds terrible, bad gameplay, stupid Ai, bad visuals and everything else Eurogamer/GamesRadar is trying to promote, Those sites really do have personal vendettas against sony titles. I dont think Eurogamer has given more than 2 9's for ps3 titles ~

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And lastly my absolute favorite information about some real substantial benefits of the Cell BE etc http://www.simbiosys.ca/blog/2008/05/03/...be-gpu-and-fpga

as well as a nice PDF white paper http://www.simbiosys.ca/science/white_pa...on_the_Cell.pdf

There are WAAAY too many "interwebz posters" that continually downplay the benefits, prospects, possibilities and untapped power of the Cell B.E. but these guys at Simbiosys.ca actually make stuff and DO things that PROVE otherwise. It still amazes me that the PS3 is only in it's 2nd year of dev time and there is still so much more to go (remember how the PS1 was & PS2 was..I mean is ;) and I am sorry to say the but 360 definitely can't say as much.


Edit: I forgot to touch upon this

Quote:

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kinda reminds you of how we were told again and again about how vibration wasn't needed or worth it in the PS3 controllers anymore by OPSM and other "supporters". Are DualShock3s standard when you buy a new PS3 now, I forget?

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You can't really fault them as the "inventor" that was suing them did so in bad form and won. I actually applauded Sony for not paying them off (like M$ & Ninty did) but in the end they did it because their customers wanted it and Immersion knew they where losing money in the long run. So Immersion approached Sony to get them to put rumble back into the DS3's only to later be re-sued by M$ for giving Sony a deal! (actually applauded M$ for that one too!).

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Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 09, 2008 00:17)

Oner
Its only reasonable that the 360 has limited max potential its much more open and easier to dev for. I truly think putting a BR drive in it and doubling the starting ramm would maximize what potential it has left, I would much rather see a 1.5 system come out to fix the 360s potential coming issues than to see a new console come out or it it start limping more than it already is.

I mean hell put a BR in it and I would rather have it than a PS3 at this point and time even if it was nearly 300 for a premium unit it would be worth every drop then as it is now its just waiting to die and I would hate to spend 200$ o it to have to replace it in 3 or less years........

Comment by: Oner (Oct 09, 2008 00:20)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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Oner
Its only reasonable that the 360 has limited max potential its much more open and easier to dev for. I truly think putting a BR drive in it and doubling the starting ramm would maximize what potential it has left, I would much rather see a 1.5 system come out to fix the 360s potential coming issues than to see a new console come out or it it start limping more than it already is.

I mean hell put a BR in it and I would rather have it than a PS3 at this point and time even if it was nearly 300 for a premium unit it would be worth every drop then as it is now its just waiting to die and I would hate to spend 200$ o it to have to replace it in 3 or less years........

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This "kinda" coincides with that view http://www.edge-online.com/news/steinber...rns-competitors

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Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 09, 2008 00:27)

Originally posted by Oner:

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Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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Oner
Its only reasonable that the 360 has limited max potential its much more open and easier to dev for. I truly think putting a BR drive in it and doubling the starting ramm would maximize what potential it has left, I would much rather see a 1.5 system come out to fix the 360s potential coming issues than to see a new console come out or it it start limping more than it already is.

I mean hell put a BR in it and I would rather have it than a PS3 at this point and time even if it was nearly 300 for a premium unit it would be worth every drop then as it is now its just waiting to die and I would hate to spend 200$ o it to have to replace it in 3 or less years........

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This "kinda" coincides with that view http://www.edge-online.com/news/steinber...etitors

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Got any good articles over PS3 drive speed? That's looking to be a big annoyance, I mean they are getting use to coding so ramm usage is not a super annoying issue right now but sheesh with the drive speed what it is in order to get stuff to load you kinda have to install it and that will put off some.

I wonder if they plan on upping the drive speed anytime soon....

Comment by: Jemborg (Oct 09, 2008 17:47)

Thanks Oner just got back from reading all that- I really do appreciate the time and trouble you went through putting that together. And it has certainly given me a lot of food for thought, very cool.

*Sigh* I guess my major beef with the PS3, in terms of performance, is with it's GPU really. I just wish it would have been better- regardless of what the "Talk Playstation" article says about it. (I do prefer nVidia over ATI btw).

Jon Stokes in the first link seems circumspect about the Cell's "appropriateness" for gaming (following a link to another of his articles)-

"What this means for gaming on the PS3 is that, no, there will never be a game that truly taps the "full potential" of the Cell BE, because that full potential can only be tapped by certain types of data-parallel HPC workloads. The data-parallel portion of a game will always be better suited to the PS3's NVIDIA-designed GPU."

If it's GPU had just been a stronger performer, it would have been pwning out-of-the-gate (and just getting better), instead of us having to wait a few years for over-the-horizon games. And, I guess, we wouldn't be having these mad debates and it would be a fait accompli.

Perhaps we can look forward to the next PlayStation (I know vapourware) using the future Cell 5.0. The issues with "weird" coding having being deal with mostly. So it won't be such a struggle for devs to optimise the code/compilers. Perhaps whacking two Cells on the one chip and a dual core GPU this time- LOL now that IS blue-sky dreaming :D.

PS. I never "faulted" $ony over the lack of vibes in the controller- just the hype that came with it... the public didn't buy it.

I'll try and find a link to the "mind-controller" (bloody brilliant imo) and post that in the Off-topic section. Pretty sure I can dig one up.

Also, a quick note, the RRoD may be somewhat alleviated by the Nov update. The problem seems to come down to placing the DVD drive on top of the GPU. Running the game from the HDD might lesson the heat build-up preventing the mainboard from warping (and I've seen plenty of those lol) and popping the chips.

Regards.

Comment by: Oner (Oct 09, 2008 22:38)

Originally posted by ZippyDSM:

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Got any good articles over PS3 drive speed? That's looking to be a big annoyance, I mean they are getting use to coding so ramm usage is not a super annoying issue right now but sheesh with the drive speed what it is in order to get stuff to load you kinda have to install it and that will put off some.

I wonder if they plan on upping the drive speed anytime soon....

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I can't seem to find the exact information that I read last, but this is from a quick Google search that I will explain a bit differently to make it easier to understand as it was a bit confusing but what it basically comes down to is CAV vs CLV & SL vs DL.


CAV = Constant Angular Velocity ~ where the speed varies on the disc from start to end.

For a SL DVD it is about 9.25MB/s up to 15.85MB/s = Average of ~8x (10.57MB/s) while a DL DVD is about 4.36MB/s up to 10.57MB/s = Average of ~6x (7.93MB/s)


CLV = Constant Linear Velocity ~ where the speed is constant/same across entire disk form start to end.

For a BD information throughput is wider so you get more data at a "slower" speed SL/DL BD 2x = Constant 72Mbps (9MB/s) no matter where you are on the disc.

So in the end the final tallies comes out to something like this

Quote:

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A Single Layer DVD averages 1.57MB/s more (10.57 > 9) by the end of the disc which is "faster" than a BD

A Dual Layer DVD averages 1.07MB/s less (7.93 < 9) by the end of the disc which is "slower" than a BD

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Now there are other little items you need to take into account like where the audio and less important things are on the disc which can slightly change some factors but the basic premise above is a general understanding for explanation and still holds true.

Another way to think of it is you can burn a CD-R @ 48x, a DVD-R @ 16x, & a BD-R @ 4x and they will still be about the same for say a 700mb file (now those are just examples and probably incorrect but you understand my point) since the speed is not the factor but the throughput/bandwidth of the medium/technology is.

So in summation most popular 360 titles (Gears, Halo, Forza, COD etc) whether they be first party of third will almost be guaranteed to be a DL DVD which would be "slower" than a BD's counterpart. But in all honesty it's really a moot point, as in my opinion both are equal when you come that close to speed vs throughput/bandwidth for SL vs DL vs BD.

Also with the installation of games to the harddrives it takes wear and tear off of the disc drives so this in itself will also help subside both the PS3 & 360's POSSIBLE drive issues along with helping load times.

Hope that isn't too confusing!

Quote:

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Sources:
Hitachi 12x DVD-Rom Faq (Page 2)
http://www.hitachi.us/supportingdocs...ead%20speed%22
What is DVD?
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd
Blu-ray.com Blu-ray FAQ
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
Wikipedia - Constant Linear Velocity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_linear_velocity
Wikipedia - Constant Angular Velocity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_angular_velocity

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Comment by: ZippyDSM (Oct 09, 2008 22:45)

Oner
Not what I was asking as the PS3 is streaming alot of data at some times higher bit rates and as things move forward thats not going to drop of anything it will go up thus why the speed of the disc to get data that Hdef data proceed might wind up being an issue down the road.

Or is this line of thought just crazy talk from a fevered mind ^_~